John Cherwa on the Muth Lawsuit

Now we go inside Santa Anita, but frankly, we're going inside

the courtroom. His name is John Sherva joins us

here on the show. latimes.com/sports.

Find all their coverage there. John is here every single year

covering the Derby. He it's Zach.

You'll have to check it out. When you're you come over this

year to the track. It's a it's interesting because

at Santa Anita, he has an actual throne at, at Churchill.

They make him sit on an old toilet that's been hollowed out.

Good morning, John. How are you?

Yes, it's great to be with you and I and I think you're right,

although, although I just thought I was on because did

like Mark Pope cancel on you or what?

What happened? I got the same e-mail everyone

at radio got, which is he's busy.

That's essentially how it goes. How are people reacting around

the country to the craziness that is our coach searches

around here? You know, it's, it's, it's the

big, it's a big job. And, and, you know, we're just

going to have to see. I mean, I, I frankly didn't know

who he was. Maybe you did, but I don't, I

don't follow college basketball that much.

But, you know, we'll just have to see.

It's, it's, I actually wrote a story the other day about when

our columnist Bill Plaschi won the Red Smith Award.

And I said that the one thing you don't want to do is follow a

legend. You want to be the guy who

follows the guy who follows the legend.

But in Plashy's case, because he followed Jim Murray as the

columnist at the at the LA Times, you know, he's made it

work for, you know, 25 years. And, and, you know, great point.

Mark Pope's got a little got a little work to do to, to follow,

you know, even though he kind of left in the middle of the night,

you know, he's so legend. Yeah, no, that's right.

John Sherva with us LA Times. He's got the story up.

He's been following the Baffert and frankly, he was first to

first 1st to the paper, frankly, first to publish about the the

initial filing in court here in Jefferson County.

It has been turned out, I thought the judge and I and I

texted this to you, John yesterday.

His his response was a little more tactful than Churchill

Downs's, but which we will get to.

But he said that the the the Zadan Racing Stables quote has

transferred its horses to a different trainer, and those

horses have been eligible to run in the Derby the previous two

years. For the 2024 racing season,

Sedan voluntarily made the decision to not transfer his

horses to a new trainer. The court appreciates a once in

a horses lifetime nature of the Kentucky Derby, but the other

aspects that play prevent this factor from weighing fully in

favor of Zidane and injunctive relief.

I thought this was a stunningly reasonable reaction to the suit.

What says John Sherman? Well, first of all, I like the

judge a lot. I mean, I listened to, I was not

in the courtroom. I listened to it, me and about

20 other people on video, I mean, on audio conference.

And I thought he was really good.

And he was. And he was, he was Pippy.

He was short. You know, he did this thing

didn't drag out. The first one was about 75

minutes and the second one was 23 minutes.

And here's my summation of the whole thing.

I thought neither team of attorneys, you know, fully

grasped the situation as they did.

They were arguing, you know, bullet points.

I thought you could tell that these a Don attorneys, including

John Quinn, who was like, you know, a Hall of Famer.

I mean, he's an LA attorney. That is extremely good.

Didn't have the depth of background that you might have

had or potentially I might have had on how horse racing works.

And I think that was that was a negative.

But you know, the the ruling by the judge, I I think was spot on

on the fact that they Don did have an opportunity to move his

horses, but he didn't, but was spot off on.

I think the next point of contention that it would injure

other horses if they were to suddenly add these horses.

Well, no. You know, the Kentucky Derby has

run with 23 horses, and in 1981, a judge ordered that more horses

be added over a some coupling decision, which would really

bore people who would talk about that.

But you can do it. And all you got to do is dust

off that old six gate and just park it right up next to the the

28 and you could run a race. And the lawyers for Zaidan never

brought that up whenever they they talked about the injurious

nature of this, of what the decision could be.

And on the other hand, the Churchill lawyers kept talking

about three horses when it was always only one horse because

illusion, as I'm under, as I understand it, I don't know if

it was in the amicus brief or not, would not have run in the

Derby anyway because of some some issue.

And there really was no third horse.

It's not like, you know, wind me up or whoever would be in it.

And but yet, you know, Churchill stuck to their bullet points

while 15% of the field would be injured, you know, and that's

just and that point I thought was was lost on on everybody.

But I think if you get to the very end of the decision, there

was a bombshell where the judge said in to paraphrase that the

the concerns of the rights of a private entity, which would be

IE Churchill supersede those of federal law, IE Heisa.

And I thought that was that was lost on on a lot of people.

But he basically said, yeah, now Churchill can do everything they

want, but you know the hell with Heisa.

And I asked Heisa for a response in in their in their normal

forthcoming way. Said we don't comment on

litigation that we're not involved in.

So I think that was part. So there was a lot to unpack

from a week of hearings. And again, I, I give a lot of

credit to, to the judge for his expediency.

We are waiting as we speak to find out if Zaydan is going to

file an appeal. Yesterday they said they would.

And but then I got a call last night that said, you know, it's

really up to Emer, Emer, Zaydan and he's, you know, he's mullied

over. So they may file it, They may

not file it, but if it happens, it'll probably happen today.

And then of course, which is, I know you want to talk to and,

and since you're a better reader than I am, I'll, I'll let you

read. It was the single most arrogant

put. Give the middle finger to the

court. Give the middle finger to the

process. Give the middle finger to

everybody involved, statement from Churchill Downs.

Quote, We are pleased with the Court's decision today and

believe Mr. Zaydan may suffer from a case of Derby fever,

which is known to spread from exposure to horses and it's

contagious This time of year. Symptoms can contribute to

questionable judgment and in extreme cases can result in

litigious behavior. There is no known cure.

Nevertheless, we have committed clearly communicated clearly

about the rules of entry which are the same for everyone and

are non negotiable. Contenders cannot sue their way

into the Kentucky Derby. We wish Mr. Zedan well in the

future and appreciate both his passion for the sport and his

desire to see his horses compete on the 1st Saturday in May.

Lots of different reactions to that.

Obviously if you are a person who is of pro Churchill Downs

persuasion, you think that's fantastic.

I think it's needlessly childish.

What's this? John Sherman?

Oh. I like I just said, you know, I

think they, they gave the middle finger to the court with that.

They've made a joke of this. This really wasn't a joke.

And it just gets to the arrogance that Churchill Downs

exhibits on a daily basis. And, you know, if I were, if I

were had any power, the person who wrote that would be gone

today. Because you don't you have to

pay respect to the court. Basically, they're saying, you

know, oh, the courts don't matter.

And I will disagree with you that that if if you're on

Churchill Downs side that you would think it was fantastic.

Anybody who appreciates or understands how the legal system

works would in a publicly traded company would not have thought

that was a good statement. John Sherva with us.

This could be a quick reply to this question.

You mentioned a change in attorney here.

Do you not use Clark Brewster because you don't want Churchill

Downs to see Clark Brewster's name on the on the litigation?

Well, Clark was an over, you know, he didn't win any.

Quinn is really good. And this is a different kind of,

this was a totally different kind of case.

And it was actually moved from regular court to business court.

And, you know, I just think it's a change, just like a change of

jockey. But I don't think it's all a

reflection on Clark, who probably did the best of what he

could. But you know, they didn't win

again here, so yeah. What do you think ends up

happening today? Do you think they file it?

You know, essentially an appeal. To this, I think if they're

smart, they won't because they're not going to win it and

they're not going to get it through in time.

But what I would do if I were, if I were the Zaidan folks, is

the judge seemed rather insistent that he didn't want to

see them back in 2025. And again, this was a big

something that was not brought up on the first day.

The second day is Churchill Downs has been resistant to any

kind of negotiation or conversation.

And the judge says, why don't you two parties, you know, get

together and try to figure this out and come up with a solution.

And it is clear by the, you know, on the second day on on

Wednesday, the Zeidan attorneys, you know, laid out exactly.

Well, we tried this. We tried this.

We tried this. We tried this.

We called Carstantium twice. He never called us back, you

know, and the Churchill attorneys responded by saying,

well, we'll, we'll look at this after this litigation is over.

Yeah. That's, you know, anybody who

knows anything about litigation is it's mostly a negotiation.

And, you know, most litigation never makes it to trial, but

Churchill seems to be completely dug in on this.

And and you know, I don't know if we'll see Bob at the Derby in

2025 because they just seem so hell bent on on punishing a guy

who hasn't had a medication violation in two years.

John Shirvo with us, he's from the LA Times,

latimes.com/sports. They're offering a six month

subscription right now for a buck so you can get in and

follow John's coverage all the way through the Triple Crown.

For a horse like Booth, who has obvious talent, do you think we

see him in the Preakness or do they wait for a 10 for a long

Belmont? No, they'll they'll run him in

the Preakness. Bob loves the Preakness.

I mean we have came up on our show last night.

He loves going, he loves going there.

Yeah, he, he, he enjoys it. Nicos has definitely ruled out

of it. And I think.

Any updates on Nicos at all? I mean, I I still think, boy, if

you're trying to pick out best, best performances this year, it

might be like Senor Buscador in the in the Pegasus.

It's probably Nicos. There was at the San Pasquale

and then and. Fiercest in the Florida, Yeah.

Fiercest Florida Derby, maybe Mystic Dan up the rail at Oak

Lawn, I don't know. There are very few examples as

good as Nicos. Nicos might be at the top of

that list. Any updates on him?

When I talked to Bob at the San Anita Derby, he said that he'd

start, he's still walking the shed and that they'd start to

work him out in two weeks, which is about now.

But I said, does that rule him out of the Preakness?

And he said, yeah, yeah, he's out.

He's out of Preakness. But you think he's like a

Haskell traverse kind of horse. Yeah, Yeah, I think, I don't

think we'll, I mean, we might see him at Saratoga, Saratoga

for the Belmont, but I don't, I don't know.

You know, Bob plays it all pretty close to the vest and

then he changes his mind, or at least changes what he said he

was going to do at the very last minute.

You know, just he. That's just how he works.

Well, and he's at a phase of his career where all of his owners

have exceeding amounts of money, so he doesn't have to rush

anything, right? I mean, he really just doesn't.

Well, that's part, you know, he's got that core of owners

that include Satan, Michael and Peterson, Pegram, Watson and

White Weissman, Weissman, and in that consortium that Tim Ryan,

the Tom Lyon Consortium of SF Racing and Maticat and blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah. So.

Yeah. So do you, I know, you know,

you're getting ready to come up here for the Derby.

What do you think? You know, if there is no Baffert

in this Derby, what is going to be the headline by the time we

get to Derby Day? That's a great question.

I think there's probably going to be a lot of talk about for

every young UAE Derby winner, OK.

And then it it becomes a really fun discussion of no horse in

the Middle East has ever won in Kentucky, right?

Yeah, it's the Mendelsohn syndrome, everyone.

We thought that was like, you know, holy cow, can this horse

win $3,000,000? So so I'm thinking, you know,

that you throw out the UAE Derby winner every year until they

actually show you they can win it.

And, you know, then, then, then you lose.

But you know, if you playing that thing would have been

successful for the last lot of years and then it's it's Sierra

Leone. How will will there be a fast

enough pace to set up to give him a chance?

And then you talk about the the the Bluegrass where he just was,

you know, freaking out, not wanting to go in the gate.

And the jockey was saying, well, it was the noise.

Well, the noise. Guess what, He's going to

Churchill Downs with 150,000 people.

And then you've got fierceness, who seems to be a bounce horse

every other race. This is not the race.

This is the other after race. And so I think there's a lot of

uncertainty in this year's this year's Derby is.

And then, you know, we're still in that process of wedding down

the field, you know, getting down to maybe under 20, maybe

20, I mean, who knows? Luckily so far, although I don't

think this is the, the, the mile marker yet, you know, we haven't

had any, any horses breakdown like we did last year.

Yeah, that's right. That's a good point actually.

Someone park, someone park Derby being out.

And so anyway, so we're we're just going to have to wait and

see. And, and, but I, I don't, you

know, this isn't like a a Nyquist year or a you know, or

oh, I agree with. Jessica Yeah.

Big, proud or? American.

Yeah, Yeah. What a stronghold wins the Santa

Anita Derby. Where?

Where does he What tier of Santa Anita Derby winner is he in?

Obviously at the top would be like a justify.

Who's what tier is he in? Oh, he's, he's in the second or

third tier. OK.

I mean, his buyer was what, 89 I think sounds right.

That's that's not great. But here's something to remember

about Stronghold. Where did he win his first race?

Churchill Downs. That's right.

In his second race, he's never finished worse than second.

He finished second to Nicos, I believe in the Bob Hope.

I think there were like four or five horses in that race.

He finished second to in the Los Elvis 30 and then he then he

came back and won at Sunland and then again the San Anita Derby.

And, and that was a, it was a competitive Derby.

It wasn't a great Derby. It is the only California horse

in the race, which is kind of unusual.

There's, you know, normally there's two or three and, and I,

you know, heard you on your on your pod, you know, say that

Santa new Derby is a fairly decent predictor of not as much

as the Florida Derby, of course, but a fairly decent predictor

of, of Derby success. But I, I would be among those

surprised if if you wanted it's Phil d'amato's first ever Derby,

might be his first ever Triple Crown race.

He's achieved a lot of of attention as a turf trainer.

He seems to be a pretty good turf trainer at Santa Anita in

in Delmar Frey Sue the jockey has never been to a Derby.

So I think that's a it's a pretty big hill to climb to see

him maybe even on the board. OK, so you know Stronghold

coming in and and John Sherva with us.

I'll I'll let you get out of here.

Are you mentioned that that that win in his maiden race at

Churchill Downs? Are you ready for the other

horses that were in that maiden race?

The The Wood winner. Brazilians ran second.

Brazilians And then there was it.

Is it like is there a skeleton in the horse or something?

Track Phantom ran third. And he?

Has qualified for the Derby as well.

So 123 in that race are all going to be in the in the

Kentucky Derby. Want to give a shout?

My buddy David is listening right now driving his FedEx

truck. He was the one who pointed this

out to me. But yes, so that race, you know,

John, it's funny because we tell people, hey, it's October, hey,

it's November. Watch the maiden races.

You might see a Kentucky Derby starter and Boo.

We had three in the same race one day at Churchill.

I know that that's amazing. But I think again for

Stronghold, he knows the track. He obviously travels well.

I mean, and I think that was a mile, that's a that was a two

turn mile, right? I believe that.

A1 turn mile here at Churchill. Yes, A1 turn.

OK, A1 turn. But he's he's done well on two

turns. So it's not like that.

Oh. That's not an issue, That's

right. Yeah, no, he's he's got plenty

left and but you know, that's, that's probably not where I'm

I'm looking, but I'll do a story on him.

You know, I'll certainly do a story on on Phil d'amato's first

trip to Kentucky Derby. I asked him, I says you're going

to ask for any advice. He said I'm going to haven't

talked to Doug O'Neill. Of course, Doug is one it with

Nyquist and I'll have another. And usually, you know, it's not

unusual for him to have a horse in the Derby.

He doesn't this year, but you know, he knows.

He knows how to do movable. I assume D'amato will keep Frasu

aboard a guy like Antonio. We're watching, for example, on

Saturday, Juan Hernandez riding for Bafford at Oaklawn, you

know, as like a prad is up at Keeneland, those kinds of

things. I'm also seeing $55,000 purses

in optional claimers at at Santa Anita.

How long until a guy like Antonio Frasu or whatever, it

just ends up picking up his tack and moving out?

I mean, are we, are we looking at that here coming up?

You know, I think there's a lot of jockeys in front of him that,

you know, like again, a Juan Hernandez.

How long is this Juan Hernandez going to, you know, is he going

to run for 55K for Baffert or is he going to run, you know, for

Brad Cox for 120 K? You know, I think Frey Sue's

next step is to move to the top of the Saint Anita colony.

I think that happens before does.

He get the Derby mount. Yeah, I I don't know anything

that says he isn't. And Phil seemed to indicate

after the race that he wasn't going.

To I think he should that's. Good, you know, and I don't I

don't know Phil's expectations is this is my best ever Derby.

Well, he's his best ever Derby shot since his first one.

But, you know, I don't think that that he sees his horse

unless he really steps up, you know, moves forward, as they say

in the horse game in his next race.

But that's why they run them. There you go.

That's why they run them. You heard it here first.

John Cherva thinks that Stronghold's the next Medina

Spirit type runner. There you go.

He's going to just 14 to one pick off the Derby.

There you go, these Southern California guys.

All right, he is John Cherva at JCHERWA on Twitter and of

course, get latimes.com/boards. John, appreciate the time.

I'm sure we'll catch up, but I did.

That was not a fake picture. I got John.

John's the the reason they still make Chardonnay.

I I got you the the 150 bottle of Kendall Jackson Chardonnay.

How about that? I know I'm, I'm very excited.

I just, you know, the kind of thing is, do you drink it?

Yeah, I guess you drink. It.

Yeah. You're drinking.

You drink the juice. That's right.

No, no, You put it down. That's right.

All right. Thanks, John.

We'll talk to you soon. All righty, take care.

There we go. John Sherman.