BloodHorse Monday 7/21/25 | Sandman is Dandy

I yes, gather round young children, it's time for the

25th. How about that 25 episodes of

this thing. Blood horse money.

That's what we call we call him Sean.

They call me Louis. We were at the Haskell over the

weekend. We're going to talk about that.

We're also going to talk about Sandman be joined by John Green

from his ownership and of course, get the rundown of all

things happening with New Jersey racing with Dennis Drazen later

in the episode. But Sean, you are allegedly on

vacation. How's the vacation going?

You look, you look very, you look like you have a black eye

and you're trying to cover it up more than anything.

No, I'm out here enjoying the sun in Ocean City, NJ right now.

Well, I guess right now I'm actually doing my best Bob

Baffert impression of wearing sunglasses indoors.

So we're doing that, but trying to have a vacation.

But I was just too excited about what happened over this past

weekend to take an episode off. So we got to take off the

sunglasses for the vacation, put on the actual glasses, and dive

into this past weekend because it was a fun one.

I don't like that at all. You have it to work here, but it

is part of the deal here. We were both Shawn Collins.

I chose to do this, by the way. Let the people show.

I am not in Puerto Rico, right next to the ocean, so you and my

you and me, my friend, were not so different on this show for

sure. Plus we just love like this is.

I know it's work, but it doesn't feel like it.

Especially after a weekend like we just had.

No, that's Park, Yeah. And, and look, Sean, I've, I've

now only been to two Haskells, but both of them were, you know,

the attendance numbers that they are 40,000 plus on Saturday.

I wanted to start with that the journalism we, we know, we know

he's great. Just the the crowd and different

things. Can I go on a mini rant here?

Can I gripe a little bit to start?

The show, but I do want to put in perspective first before you

start your little mini rant. This is the largest crowd that

the Haskell has seen since American Pharaoh was there in

2015. And I will, I'm sure we're going

to be talking about a couple of the same things here, whatever

your rant is about. But I do want to kind of also

give a little shout out to journalism.

And I'll talk a little bit about some of the things I heard

around the track on Haskell day as I was walking around.

But go ahead on your little mini.

What good point by you. Let's start with the star of the

show. Let's start with journalism.

All right, Well, I just want to say, you know, we keep saying

how this sport needs stars in racing walking around Monmouth

on Saturday. Journalism is one of them

because the amount of people that I've heard, and these are

people who seemed like they were not horse racing fans, that this

was, you know, their typical one visit to the track.

Preakness winners here. Did you hear the Preakness

winners here? Did you see his Preakness run?

It was amazing. Oh, did you see his runs against

sovereignty like journalism's here?

You had people talking about that the entire day.

I was hearing it non-stop. You had, I remember I was

standing near one person in the paddock area, 3 or 4 races

beforehand. She's on the phone with somebody

else that was with her at the track that day.

She said, I'm not leaving this spot because I'm right up in

front where I'm going to be able to see journalism when he comes

in. So there were people waiting in

the paddock for him. Specifically they were when he

came walking out of the tunnel. There was a big roar from the

crowd when he came walking out of the tunnel, not to mention

the gigantic roar from the crowd.

I still have goosebumps thinking about it as he was coming down

the stretch. That was absolutely insane.

One of the loudest crowd reactions I've ever heard any

race that I've been to. That final 16th of a mile, it

was so loud it made my ears hurt.

And I was up in the front of the top section of seats filming

that race and I could hear just the sound of everything coming

up in my direction. It was awesome experience.

Amazing race by Journalism and awesome experience at the

Hassle. And he's a star.

We need to give him the credit that he deserves.

You know, obviously he and Sovereignty are both at that top

level, but there's something about his wins that just

resonates with sports fans, resonates with people who don't

usually follow racing, and it just makes him into an even

bigger star, one of the biggest ones we've had in a long time.

Yeah, I always go in my head with and we don't need stars.

This is horse racing. We run every day.

We don't need this. And then torpedo Anna happens

and everyone falls in love and then journalism, who's not even

the best in his division potentially gets this kind of

reaction. Sean, you're totally right.

And and it is a reminder especially and and and my

essentially my rant was going to be stop complaining about who's

showing up, especially when it's younger people.

Don't, don't whine that a college, a broke college student

isn't betting. Stop, stop.

They're there. The point is to get them in the

door before they're 30 so that when they are 30 and have money,

they spend it there, right? That's the point of all of this.

Not to mention that's what they they paid admission, they paid

concessions. It's like they might not be

betting they're still giving money to the racetrack.

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. You know a beer bought on site

doesn't go through an ADW. Track gets to pocket all that,

buddy, It doesn't just. And Sean, I found myself because

of and you know, you and I are lucky we get to, we get to be

right there for these races. I, I was in the winner's circle

for the Haskell, right? This is a cool part of the job

for sure. But you know what?

I did the last eighth of a mile when I knew he was going to make

his run. I didn't know if he was going to

win or not. I assumed he would because this

is what he does. But I didn't know if he was

going to win or not. But Sean, I caught myself

looking back like this over my shoulder to the larger crowd

just to see the reaction. You would have thought it was

the Kentucky Derby, would have absolutely thought it was the

Kentucky Derby with him making that late move.

So not only were people excited by the race itself, like you

said, incredible noise when he starts making the run.

And you're right, there's something about him because he

makes his runs in the middle of the track by himself.

You know who he is and he's making that late run.

That crowd starts going. I watched the head start bobbing

because or jumping, right, this kind of stuff, like you can see

it as you're standing there. And that only happens with

journalism. If that had been, I don't know,

pick another Kentucky outlaw making that run.

It's not the same. It just isn't.

It's not the same. And so to that point, Sean,

you're totally right. And frankly, if that was your

first time at the races on Saturday and the only bad thing

was that it rained for 5 minutes, I think you're probably

going back. And that's the point here is

stop. Stop complaining about whether

people are wagering or not. Just get them in the darn door.

Just get them in and then we'll figure it out.

To back off of that, I saw somebody on I think it was

Twitter. I saw something somebody

somewhere who do exactly what you just said about the fact

that they were screaming for journalism.

Their counter argument to that was, well, they were only doing

it because he was the two to five favorite and they had money

on him. OK, so.

What? They know what his name is now.

They had a thrilling experience cheering him home as he was

coming down the stretch. Guess what?

That's what turns people into racing fans.

I became a racing fan because I was cheering on Smarty Jones.

I was cheering on Barbara as they were coming down the

stretch. I had no idea who they were

beforehand. I had no idea what horse racing

was beforehand. But guess what?

Here I am now doing a podcast about horse racing every single

week. So obviously it works and that's

what you need. You need people to be excited

about it. You need people to have that

experience with it. And that's what's gonna get them

back in the door. That's what's gonna get them to

show up at Monmouth on a Saturday next month or a

Saturday in September. That's gonna be what she drives

them back to the Haskell next year.

That's what you need. And journalism delivered on

that, on that part of it. Do you know what my parents

invented? They invented the strip mall and

the drive through. It was go out, get your stuff

and go home. The next generation is rebelling

against that. Your generation, Sean, frankly,

OK people in their 20s, it's not about stuff.

Your generation is not about stuff.

It's about experiences. And going to the tracks is an

experience, right? You have to wear a certain

outfit. You have to be ready for the

conditions. You have to be thinking about

what your your bankroll is for the aforementioned food and

drink and then for betting and those kinds of things.

It's a legitimate experience. It's it's almost a journey to go

to a horse, a day of horse racing, right?

Figuring out all of those different aspects to it.

That's what I'm talking about. Like there's an opportunity here

because the sport is shifting toward big days, ironically for

wagering purposes, to get more money in the door.

But it's creating these big events for younger people too.

And we got to stop fighting this stuff, man.

These internal battles. If you went to, if you were one

of those 25 year olds who went to the Haskell, it was your

first time at the track and you had a blast.

And you just went to X and you searched Haskell and someone

said, why are these bum kids in the way?

Why would you ever go back? Why would you ever do that?

We're fighting ourselves for no reason on this stuff.

And I hope that in the future people will simply look to a

full crowd and a bunch of excited people who are actually,

but they're paying attention. You get to pay attention at a

Mexican restaurant when there's nachos in front of them.

I mean, come on. And so this is like, this is the

good stuff. It really is.

And so I'm I'm so, so glad you and I got to go and and look

other races as well. So obviously win and in for the

Breeders Cup Classic there journalism one of those

participants that we expected anyway.

I'm sure the connections don't mind having the fees paid.

That helps. I do think.

Look, it reported on Thoroughbred LA radio yesterday

with my guy John Lindo that journalism's gonna stay W after

this race and probably train for the for the Pacific Classic.

Sean, are you surprised by that? I'm not at all.

I'm not surprised by it, no, But we'll see if that changes.

I'll say that. I'm with you on that part

because if you don't hear that he's going to take a little time

and his next workout's the fastest he's ever had, he's just

ready. He's going to, he's going to hit

the work tab in two weeks and he's going to look like nothing

has happened at all this year and he's about to make sure to

start off the layoff and it's we'll, we'll see what happens.

He's just, he's the kind of horse that he needs.

He needs work, he needs, he just loves his job and he needs to

keep going out there and doing it.

So we'll see whether or not he's able to wait that long, but

we'll also see what happens on Saturday and see whether or not

that has any kind of impact on decision making.

Hey, Del Mar Carta non 7 lifers race right now.

You understand me something give me give this horse something to

do in the next month here. All right, Sean at the Jersey

Shore. I'm here in the blood horse

studio hanging out with you on a blood horse Monday.

It's the 25th episode of this show.

And by the way, if you are someone who has hung out with

this show multiple times, he found us for the first time.

Sean and I are very appreciative of that fact. the United Nations

was right beforehand. And I know you've got an

interesting stat about not just who won that race in

redistricting, but in that another race that he came out

of. Yeah, I want to give a shout out

to owner and breeder Richard Klein for pointing this out to

me earlier today. He has Brilliant Birdie, who was

in the the Muniz Memorial Classic Stakes at Fairgrounds

back in March. We've seen a several horses come

out of this race to run very big races.

Spirit of Saint Louis finished fourth.

He comes back and he wins the Turf Classic on Kentucky Derby

day. Redistricting obviously just won

the United Nations Stakes at Monmouth.

Rebel Red came back and won the Shirleywood at Churchill Downs.

And then of course, Brilliant Birdie himself came back to win

the Wise Dam Stakes last month at Churchill Downs.

So talk about that being it's a very important race.

It looks like this year with a lot of those horses coming back

running huge races throughout the summer here.

We've seen that turf course last year, we saw it with sprinters,

this year we're seeing it with routers as far as as future

success. But there's something about that

Fairgrounds winter having a place to run on the green, you

know, that isn't Gulf Stream or out in Southern California,

something like that does seem to matter.

And so hopefully and hopefully they got those issues, knew that

turf race into New Orleans. It has obviously led to much,

much better racing that way. Immersive doesn't show up like

we thought at Saratoga. We blamed it.

Saratoga, we worried about immersive.

Or is it both? Sean, I don't know, You know, it

might just be one of those things where she was so dominant

at 2 and now the other three-year old fillies have

maybe caught up to her a little bit she had to take.

Some time off, right? I mean.

Yeah, she had to take some time off.

This was her second start of the year, so I'm still OK with

giving her, you know, another chance in another race down the

line. And I still think she's probably

one of the top Phillies in this division.

I also think things just really did set up for Scottish Lassie

to 3rd off the layoff to really be able to run her best race if

you haven't already. Seen.

Yes, it's. If you haven't seen it already,

if you're listening to this and you haven't been on Blood Horses

YouTube channel this week, I actually had the opportunity at

Saratoga last week to ride around with trainer Jorge Abreu

while Scottish Lassie was paddock schooling and doing her

morning training and got to talk to him while we were on the golf

cart following her. It was a really cool video.

So make sure you go check that out on Blood Horses YouTube

page, especially since she just dominated the race right after

that video was taken. So that's.

Pretty cool. This show is very good for

future. I know we're great at

prediction. Fantastic.

Welcome, Aaron Wellman. You're welcome.

I mean, like you didn't come on the show immersive connections

before that race. How about that they?

Did not. No, they did not.

So maybe, maybe that's all there is to it.

You just need to be on Blood Horse Monday in.

Order. That's exactly right.

You jump on BHM, it's over. That's exactly right.

All right. Well, let's welcome our first

guest of the day. John Green joins us are from DJ

Stable. Appreciate him jumping on the

show here. Jonathan, how are you?

I'm doing great and now that I hear that success only.

You don't need to do anything other than just show up on the

show. That's awesome.

Great news for you here. Of course, Sandman will run this

coming weekend at Saratoga, but lots of good things happening

for your stable right now and for your your group there.

I quite Sandman's going to get the social media attention and

and, and deservedly so. He's a cool horse for sure, but

man, nitrogen's getting within our circles at least just a ton

of attention this year. Deservedly for sure.

Did you know this could be coming to this level?

I mean, goodness gracious, she's spectacular.

Yeah, you, you hope, you know you, you, you hope.

And you dream. And when your head hits the

pillow, you know, that's what you think of.

You think of these these big races, whether it's the Derby or

the Oaks or Breeders' Cup or, or, you know, anything of that

caliber. But you, you guys know

mathematically there's less than a 1% chance that your horse will

make it to a grade one, let alone win a grade one.

So the odds are stocked stacked against you.

And, and we're just very fortunate to have not only good

horses, but a really good team of human beings around us that

are helping us navigate the waters.

Now take us through Sandman. He's been off for a couple of

months since the Preakness Stakes.

I was back talking to Mark Cassie and Terry Finley at the

bar in a couple last week. After he did his breeze, seems

like they were really confident that this time off has done him

well. They've seen him grow a little

bit. How excited are you guys to be

getting him back to the races? You know the thing with with

Sandman has always been twofold. 1 is how is he doing physically?

You know that the tappets tend to run a little bit lean, a

little bit more like a like a greyhound as it were.

And because of that, you know, sometimes these races take a

little bit more out of them than they do the your average, you

know, thoroughbred. So that's one thing and and the

other is, you know, from a style standpoint, he had, he showed

early on that he had early foot speed, you know, cross out the

first race because Mark's horse's first time out never run

well. And if they do, you know, he

they're they're champions because the, you know, he just

really doesn't tighten the screws on him.

But when, you know, when Sandman won 7/8, you know, at Saratoga,

he went 2245 one 11 and and was skipping along pretty well.

And and then as we were going, you know, further with him, we

let him develop a style of his own where he could kind of

relax, take a breath, let the speed go out there because as

you guys know, his two year olds are evolving.

Most of them run to the front. So it was to our advantage to

kind of let the speed go and and let's say a man kind of pick him

off as they come, as they come down to pace.

But we were never able to get him to come back to the form of

going out, getting close and having tactical speed.

And we know he has it because he's breezed, you know, sub one

minute for five furlongs easy. He's gone 46 flat, you know, in

the mornings and and it's never been an issue for him to show

the speed. But to be able to marry the two

of having tactical speed and still a kick at the end, that's

what we want. And now with the blinkers, it

seems like that the light has gone on with with the horse and

he's training really well into them.

And we expect a, you know, a big outing in the Jim Dandy, albeit

I think the other four horses in the race are all legit and and

they're they're expecting, you know, big outings.

Also. There's There's a reason why the

Jim Dandy is on people's schedules and on their

calendars, and that's because of a field, albeit not a not a deep

field in numbers, certainly a deep field in talent.

John Green with us, he's a GMADJ stable here on Blood Horse

Monday. Lewer Beauchamp Collins hanging

out with you post Haskell edition of the show you.

It's interesting you went straight to tactics with him

because if you look at the results with Sandman, it's

undeniable. He's been very good his last

three races. He wins the Arkansas Derby.

You get that grade one win with him.

He finishes in the top third of the Kentucky Derby.

I always tell people essentially if that's an 8 horse field, your

horse finishes second, right? Something like that at very

worst. And then, you know, comes back

in the Preakness 2 weeks later and runs.

Look, I think we we've lost what else happened in that race.

We think of journalism for sure. And all of the mayhem on the

inside. Gozger gets rundown at the end.

I think we forget that he did some really good running at the

end of that race. Did Sandman 2 parter here.

You mentioned the change in tactics here.

I'm I'm interested in in if you think he'll, he'll kick it in.

And the second part is what went into your decision to go to the

Preakness this year? Well, let me get the second one

first because that's a little easier.

And, and I'll, I'll quote my good friend Aaron Wellman when

he talked about, you know, his top horse journalism last last

week on your show. And he said, we let the horse

tell us. And and that's really the truth.

I think that the best managers in the industry are the ones

that, you know, let the horse tell them, let the trainer, you

know, read the tea leaves and watch the horse train and then

get an understanding of where the horse is best.

I, I was terrible at this. I, I had a really bad habit of

when we had a good horse, I would immediately start working

backwards from, you know, four or five months ahead.

Where do we want to be? And, and that's great as a

strategy, you know, on paper, but in reality, these are

athletes and these are horses that are going to have go, you

know, ebb and flow as far as their interest.

They, you know, they are, are, you know, horses that maybe get

sick or have a little issue. Sometimes it rains sometimes,

you know, sometimes the, the, the, the racing gods aren't in

your favor. Sometimes you get, you know, the

luck of the draw and you get right where you want to be.

Other times you're stuck on the rail or you're in the 12 hole.

So there's a lot of things that go into whether or not you can

have the ability to win a race. But to be able to really project

more than one or two races in advance is really difficult to

do. And you're not doing the worst

the service that that, that, that they need to tell you

what's going on. So I think Aaron Willman said it

much better than I did even last week where you just let the

horse tell you and then you prepare accordingly.

So that was #1 #2 is I don't think that Sandman has to show

22 flat 44, especially in this race going 9 panels.

I think there's one speed just on the immediate outside of us

in Moplex. I think that if we were four or

five lines off of the front runner, that would be a great

start for us. That would be better than being

12 lengths off like he was in the Preakness, 15 or 20 lengths

off like he was in the Derby. And even in the even in the

Arkansas Derby, he was like a dozen lines off it before he

started to kick in and and run it.

And, you know, I wonder sometimes if it all goes back to

the Southwest. When he got, you know, he had,

he basically almost threw the rider.

You know, poor Christian Torres almost fell off the horse.

He did a yeoman's job of being able to stay on.

And I wonder if the horse was like, hey, this is cool.

Well, I get to pass all these other horses and this is really

fun, you know, navigating around and that's what got into his

head and now that's what you know, to this past couple of

weeks that to his point was his running style.

It's what his preferred style was.

But the nice thing about Sandman is, again, unlike other tappets,

he's very smart and he will, he's, he's very willing to

listen to what the humans around him want him to do.

And, and, and having that willingness to try to change

things is really important because I think that's the

difference between having a horse at one level and get to

the next level. If you know, physically is one

thing. They're all developing, they're

all growing. As you can see just by the the

sheet numbers and the buyer numbers, they're all improving,

but they have to be able to also relax and not expend that energy

and not expend that mental energy and have it in the, you

know, in your resources to be able to get past those couple of

horses. And I think, you know, again,

journalism is a great example of that.

In the paddock, he doesn't turn a hair.

And because of that, I really feel like that that's one of the

reasons why he's got the reserve, to be able to kick and

and pass horses down the stretch.

We're lucky here on this podcast.

We have a wide range of people that listen to us.

You know, we have long time racing people.

We also have, you know, people who are maybe just getting into

the sport. And one of the things that I

like that you said earlier is, you know, Mark's horses don't

always win first time out. Something you guys expected,

something you guys are OK with. I feel like a lot of times there

might be some owners that get their first horse in the

industry. If they're not having that

immediate success with the horse, you know, then maybe

they're like, oh, why did I do this?

And they get out of it. And you just talk about the

importance of developing the patience, developing the trust

in the horsemen and what that is like for anybody who's maybe

getting into the ownership side. Yeah, Sean, I think that's a

great question. And, and, and it's one that we

try to tell people all the time is that even the best trainers

in the world are going to win one out of 5 * 1 out of 6 times.

It means you're doing a lot of losing.

So if you don't have the inner fortitude and the patience and

the and the pocketbook, quite frankly, the checkbook to be

able to, you know, give a horse 234 starts before you really

make a final decision on them. You're not in the right

business. And and it's always exciting

when you win. Don't get me wrong.

And we love it when we have a horse win first time out, but

the reality of it is, is that we don't make an assessment on a

horse until they've run at least three times, if not four times.

And then we start to make decisions as to what we project

the horse dirt turf, you know, all weather Sprint, you know,

distance or a different, different group all together.

And we've been very proactive, especially with the digital

sales of selling horses that we feel like would do better on

other circuits than the than the ones that we're on.

And those horses have come back and they've gone through their

their maiden races and their allowance conditions and some of

them even stake races. So there's certainly nothing

wrong with that. I love when people come to us

and say, hey, I bought this horse from you and it went on

and did well 234 races down the line.

That's great. I want them to be able to do

that. I want that horse to succeed my

owner. You have to be able to have the

inner fortitude to be able to say I'm going to give this

horse, you know, 345 starts before I really make a, a hard

and fast decision on on what I should do.

And if you can't do that, it's OK.

It just means that you shouldn't be in this business because

you're going to lose a lot more than you went.

You have other stakes winners in your past.

Their names are Web Slinger and Wonder Wheel and Dream On and

Nitrogen and lots of other ones, but none of them had Griffin

Johnson alongside them for a bunch of the social media

attention. Has that been much of an

adjustment for, for your operation or is he operating in

such a way that it seems to not be?

I don't, boy, I don't want to use words like intrusive or

anything like that. But is it, has it had to?

Has it changed your approach at all, your group's approach at

all? Or is he seemed to get it, even

though this is really his first, his first foray here.

Yeah, I give Griffin. A ton of credit because I think

that even as a young individual in this industry that doesn't

have a, a history of the, of the business, it wasn't like his

parents were in the business or grandparents or wasn't like he

was going to the racetrack when he was a 5 year old and, and had

a real thirst and love for it. He has developed an interest in

the horse and granted, don't get me wrong, Sandman has been a

great, you know, horse for him to be attached to.

If it was a horse that was running for maiden 10 claiming

race, I don't think it would have the same kind of interest

that that it's drawn. But, but going into the Derby,

we really felt like Sandman was the people's horse.

I mean, and, and a lot of it was because of of Griffin Johnson

and because of America's best racing and and their program.

As a matter of fact, I have a call this this week again with

Dan Torchman of America best racing to to do it again, not

not necessarily even with Griffin, but with another

influencer with the idea of trying to broaden the scope of

and the interest of our of our audience.

I think Griffin was the perfect storm with Sandman.

I think it was the right person, the right personality, the right

horse and he genuinely has an interest in the business, which

is a lot different than other influencers who have been not

just in that program, but in other programs as well.

It was funny. It just a quick side anecdote.

We were we, we ran 7th in the Derby.

And I remember texting Griffin, you know, afterwards or I think

I even walked up to him afterwards in in the box and I

said, Hey, you're going to lose a lot more.

You're going to win. To have your first horse being

the Derby is phenomenal, phenomenal.

And I hope, I hope you appreciate.

And he did. And the next day he, he texted

me, you know, thanks so much. It was really meaningful for you

to, you know, come up in that moment and, and, and say to me,

I said, hey, just so you know that the, the, the vultures are,

are circling now, you know, everyone's going to take a

potshot at you and everything like that.

And it was funny because he said to me, now they're in my domain.

I got this. And I started laughing as I'm

reading on the phone because I'm looking at it.

And he's like my daughter's age, you know, and I and I always

think, OK, he's, he's a kid, but he's really not.

He's a very savvy business person and, and I give Griffin a

ton of credit for, for riding the upscale, you know, the

upswing and, and, and taking it like a champ on, on on the

downswing. It's not an easy thing to do at

any age. Well, also another.

Very important part to the team, of course, is trainer Mark

Cassie. He just had a big milestone this

past week, getting his fourth thousandth career win.

Just what is it like using Mark as your, your guys's main

trainer and just the success that you've seen with him?

And what does this accomplishment mean to you guys

as well, 'cause I know a lot of those wins that come with your

horses, yeah. You know.

We we've been with Mark now for this will be our sixth year and,

and when we first got together with him, you know, obviously he

was already in the Canadian Hall of Fame.

He was just about to entering the the American Hall of Fame in

Saratoga. So obviously he had a a ton of

experience. And the thing that that drew us

to Mark was that he had experience across the board.

So it wasn't just in training. It was also in going to work,

going to sales and, you know, learning from him what to look

for, you know, confirmation. Like he's taught me a tremendous

amount of how to project what a horse is going to look like,

which that that in itself is an art.

And I really feel like that it was kind of the right place at

the right time for both of our programs because we were ready

to to after 30 plus years to step it up from a buying

standpoint and try to buy some better bred horses.

Mark was Mark had excess capacity in his stable that he

was willing to go ahead and take on, you know, behemoth, like,

like, like us, because you know, it's great when you have all

these steak horses and stuff like that, but he's also got,

you know, 60-70 horses for us in total.

And that's a big, big, you know, dynamic change when, when

you're, when you're taking on a big operation like that.

And, and I know unbeknownst to your audience and to my audience

on real fuck podcast as well, I'm not the easiest guy to work

with. So, you know, so there's also

had to be kind of a personality mesh that worked, you know, as

well. And, and the first year or so

together, we worked on our communication.

And I realized very quickly that I shouldn't be trying to train

horses in New Jersey from my desk.

My, that's not my job. My job is, you know, is

multifaceted, but to, to, to try to micromanage A2 time Hall of

Famer, you know, that's eight states away from me.

Is, is, is silly for a lot of reasons.

And Mark also was willing to take on a big, you know,

ownership operation like ours and, and basically change the

way that he communicated. So, you know, every two weeks,

every other week, I should say every Tuesday, I get a different

report from him on, on the 1st and 3rd Tuesdays of the month,

it's the two year olds. And on the other two Thursdays

of the month, Tuesdays of the month, it's the older horses.

And we go through them all and we'll sit on the phone together

for, you know, for a couple hours and go through them one by

one as to what's going on, how they're training, what our

expectations are. And again, he's listening to the

horses and, and telling me what, you know, what he is seeing.

And as a manager, I'm doing my best to try to say, OK, well,

based on the information you're telling me, there's a race at

Colonial, there's a race at Saratoga, there's a race coming

up, you know, so I, I can kind of fill in that void for him,

you know, and, and, and I think together we've, we've, we've

done pretty well. We've so far we've been together

six years and we've had at least one horse in the Breeders Cup

race every single year. And and and now we're, you know,

we have two champions and and hopefully maybe a third,

although I listen to your mid season eclipse awards.

But I got to. Take a little, you know,

umbrance with you as far as I I'm not biased, but I personally

think that nitrogen is the best 3 year old Philly in the country

right now. I would not argue that.

If we see what what we're expecting at the Alabama, I

definitely won't be arguing with you on that.

All right, I, I had to, I had to, you know, to to smack around

Karnacki a little bit to make sure that he said that nitrogen

was the best. So I'm glad to hear, but no, but

I think I think that division, I know you didn't ask me, but that

division of three-year old Phillies is really amazing

because any given race it's changing.

You know, it, there's, there's, you know, whether it's La Cara

and you know, or good cheer or immersive and and and nitrogen

and, you know, and, and the Philly that that that just has

now won 22 great at stake races, You know, Scottish lassie.

I mean there, there's now all of a sudden it was like it's almost

like, Oh, there's nothing to watch on Netflix.

And then all of a sudden it's like, Oh my God, there's 16

things I want to watch now, you know, you know, good cheer is

head and shoulders better. Well, now all of a sudden it's

like there's there's a changing of the garden every race that

changes. All right, you just answered the

question I was about to ask actually.

That's that's good stuff, Jonathan.

All right, so Jonathan Green for DJ Stabiliza, GM there.

All right, last one, we'll let you get out of here on this.

I love to ask people about horses they don't own and don't

train. I'm always interested in how

they see the other, not not necessarily just competition,

but the other, you know, players in the sport, right Jonathan?

How good is the top of this 3 year old class?

Both, I mean both Colts and Phillies.

It's unbelievable, isn't it? It really is.

And, and again, we, you know, on, on my podcast, we talk about

it all the time about this three-year old class and how,

you know, we wouldn't be surprised to see a three-year

old Philly and a three-year old colt sweep their respective

divisions when it comes to the Breeders Cup.

It looks like Torpedo Anna, you can make the case that maybe

either Mcpeak's not, not not peaking her yet and that maybe

she's coming to a or like most Phillies, you know, they, they,

they have a shelf life and they run really well and then their

biological clock starts ticking and they want to be brood mares.

And that's just kind of the nature.

We've seen it with Wonderwheel and Jay and Jaywalk and other

Phillies that we've had where there's no guarantee they're

going to be as good or if not better racehorse as a three-year

old as they were a 2 year old and a four year old.

They were a three-year old. So I really feel like, and then

with a lot of these Colts that are retiring to stud deals, I'm

not going to say that the cupboard is bare because it's

certainly not. There's certainly some great

older horses, you know, with Sierra Leone and, and fierceness

and, and the like. But, you know, I wouldn't be

surprised if if this time, you know, the second week of

November, if we're talking and and it's, you know, that

journalism won or that, I mean, even you mentioned sovereignty,

all sovereignty didn't beat cruelism twice, you know, So

there's there's. There's a, there's a bunch.

Of horses I think on in both divisions, both 3 year old

divisions that are peaking and that continue to grow and

improve. And it would not surprise me to

see, you know, both those the Classic and this staff being won

by three-year olds. John Green and DJ.

Stable we appreciate him jumping here to Blood Horse Monday,

slumming it on this podcast. We appreciate you very much

hanging out with not at all. Thanks so much guys.

I really enjoy it and and keep up the good work.

Thank you. Thanks.

Trips this weekend, Buck, thanks.

All the best. Thanks, John there.

You go John Green DJ stable here with us on Blood Horse Monday,

OH. Man, Sean.

Sandman thing it's interesting to watch that dynamic all

together because by the way, shout out to Steve Kornacki.

All right, so The Who apparently did us good with DJ stable.

All right, so the the thing with Sandman, how much are he?

He said we we felt like we had the people's horse by the time

we got to the Derby. Interesting.

Or did they? Have the the polarizing horse at

the Derby, because I feel like there was a crowd that was like,

yeah, Griffin's got a horse. And then there was a crowd of

dudes who, I don't know, hate fix odd wagering or something

that were like, why is this guy who doesn't bet enough taking

selfies with his horse? And so I was it over?

Was he the people's horse at Derry?

I'm trying to figure that out now.

He I think. He was the people's horse.

I, I, I think there was a small little portion of people on

social media who complained about everything very loudly who

decided to take issue with Sandman because, you know, that

was the hot topic to take issue with.

I, I, I do remember from being, you know, at Churchill through

the lead up, Sandman got a lot of attention the entire week

leading up to it from people that were on the backside seeing

it from people that were on the front side coming in to watch.

Part of that is he's a big beautiful grey.

Part of that is also because of the fact that he was a social

media star. Essentially.

We haven't seen a horse, a horse be a social media star in this

industry before, right? So I, I do, I do agree with that

statement that he's the people's horse.

There was someone at the Haskell, I don't know if you

heard of Louis, there was someone who yelled out when

journalism was walking away like that.

He's they yelled something along the lines of, you know,

sovereignty may may have beaten him twice, but journalism's the

people horse, something like that.

So Sam man's got to get his title back this.

Well, that's. Aaron last week when he was on

the show appreciate John watching that episode, but the

you know the. There there is.

A real sense he he mentioned the mid season awards journal

journalists got the second most for horse of the year.

I know when we did our. Fan vote Yeah on the fan.

Vote ahead of mind frame who has multiple grade one wins in

legitimate high level. Maybe race of the year type

grade ones. I mean just the best sources.

That are out there, yes, and. So that's the that's where you

know, I it, it is a reminder. We talked about it to open the

show, the three-year old division and what we do,

especially in the United States is just so important.

And and it's why when people get flip about the the Triple Crown

conversation to different things, it's not something to be

flip about. That is not the place to be

making quick decisions or, you know, whatever, just, you know,

oh, we feel like it should go like this.

That's not it. It this is way too important for

what we do for it to be any different there.

So thanks to John Green from DJ stable.

Appreciate it very much. I sat down last Friday with

Dennis Grayson who is in management there at his his

conglomerate runs Monmouth Park and Sean.

He walked me through many, many different things.

His thoughts on wagering. Dennis is in the in the in the

sports betting Hall of Fame. OK, he's one of these guys.

He is a sports wagering Hall of Fame.

He is a a person who is very forward thinking about these.

Possibilities. These issues, whatever you want

to call it, I don't want to even use the word issue.

It's more just he is thinking about what the next thing is,

either for the next generation or just to fill the coffers for

horse racing. And I thought the conversation

was very interesting. He also gets into what they want

to do with the grounds there, the fight he had with the New

Jersey government, all kinds of things going on.

So here is my conversation from that.

Beautiful, beautiful library there at Monmouth Park.

Appreciate. And this, by the way, this is a

long conversation because Dennis was very, very generous with

this time. Found out right before the

interview. Like my dad, he's a lawyer.

So all of a sudden he liked me. But I think by the end, you have

to tell me, Sean, if he's still like me by the end.

I'm kidding, Dennis. All right, we'll have to wait.

To see, there you go. And me Friday at Monmouth Park.

All right, welcome into the library here at Monmouth Park

alongside Dennis Trays and Lou Rebeau.

Of course, Blood Horse Monday. Thanks for hanging out with us

to start your horse racing week. Dennis.

Happy Haskell, man. How are you?

Thank you. I'm great.

Thank you for that right up by. Your face for me.

There we go. Thank you for having me.

No problem at all. We're sitting in your

unbelievable library here at Monmouth Park.

There was ANBC pre production meeting in here earlier.

Very official things happen in this room, but it's also just a

beautiful spot. What is is there a history to

this room or is this just an old school track that has a has a

great library? So this track.

Was built in 1946 we started racing in New Jersey in 1870,

but this facility was built in 1946 and this was the historic

library where we keep all the, you know, souvenirs and tokens

from the past and all the books that are, you know, going back

to the 1800s and race records. And we do a lot of historic

meetings here over the years and use this room quite a lot.

But this room has a special meaning to all of us at Monmouth

Park. And so welcome to the library.

No, I appreciate it. It's my.

Second year set up in this space and I I've long joked that

someone needs to make the social media page about the libraries

of horse racing. I think I would have to start

here. I mean, these chandeliers almost

invite like a Viking to come invade New Jersey, do they not?

I mean, look at the metal in here.

It's incredible. It's great here.

You want to start that page, then welcome you to be the

first. Well, it'd be fantastic.

We should probably do that here with Dennis Drayson.

He's part of the ownership and the leadership team here at

Monmouth Park and Haskell Weekend itself.

You know, I'm a lucky guy. I get to travel the country and

be it tracks on their biggest days.

It's really a delight of my job. It was just in Indianapolis for

the for the Indiana Derby, which is going to have a very

different deal, for example, than the day tomorrow here at

Monmouth. How important is the?

Is Haskell itself the race and in the day itself as far as what

you do here at Monmouth Park Haskell?

Itself is the pinnacle of the season.

So it's our signature $1 million race that's got historic

significance. A lot of the Champions, year end

champions over the years have come here for either Haskell or

the supporting races at Haskell dating back to.

I mean, my favorite is the American Pharaoh, I'm sure.

Yeah, we had 61,000 people here. You know, that's a little.

Like the Wilt Chamberlain game for horse racing, 61,000 people

were here, but 610,000 claimed they were right.

It's a lot of those, you know, 5000 at the Chamberlain game,

500,000 people when I feel like that day that what was that

Pharaoh day like It was. Amazing.

But you know, the, the part that surprised me, I, I expected a

big crowd to have a Triple Crown winner here, of course, but what

surprised me was the whole week we had 10,000 a day come out

early in the morning to watch them train, you know, so that

was wonderful. You know, the sun's coming up,

the birds are chirping and nice and peaceful and what could be

better than watching horses on a track?

But we've also had, you know, over the years, horses like

Ruffian come through here spectacular bit Rachel

Alexandra, Serena's song. I mean, I could go on and on,

but. You know, a lot of the classic

famous horse races came through here.

I was just doing a tour for tourism and there's a 1958

banner for Bold Ruler, the Sire Secretariat, and you know, the

Alice Sheba silks were there and we went to the jocks room before

that. And, you know, they had all the

historical significance of all the different connections that

came through Monmouth Park. But Monmouth Park is one of the

jewels of racing in the country. And you know, it's come to the

horsemen and to me to preserve it.

You know, the track itself, the first version was built in 1870.

This more modern facility was built in 1946.

The horsemen here and myself took over in 2012.

Everyone was betting against us 'cause it's not easy that it's

not break even with horse racing.

But we've now we're 2025 and a success and just signed a new 87

year lease. So hopefully I live to see most

of it. But if not, the state tells me

my corporation, you know, we'll have to lease and got to get

younger. That's all right.

You know the the in horse racing, we're watching this

model that you have here where the horsemen run the track.

For example, in Maryland, we're seeing a revitalization of that

model with the new Pimlico, what they're going to try to do at

Fair Hill with the the training center.

Do you think your model is replicable around the country?

I do. Billy Noff is down there now.

Billy was here at 26 years, did a great job.

Of course, sorry to lose them, but you know, it was a wonderful

opportunity to be, you know, on the ground breaking of a new

facility down there and I think they'll get it done right.

So do. Yeah, I think so too.

I'm very hopeful for what's going to happen in Maryland.

It's alongside Dennis Drazen here on Blood Horse Monday.

Louis Rabo with you. It's the day before the Haskell

as we tape this. You mentioned that American

Pharaoh Day. There's a lot of buzz around

journalism coming this year, which has been really pleasant.

We talked with Aaron Wellman last week on this program, part

of the ownership at Eclipse, talked with Matt Dennerman, who

calls the races here. You can just tell there's a

there's always a little bit of because of the placement of this

race, the Whitney next week, of course, the Belmont about a

month and a half ago, some question as to who's going to be

healthy, who's going to want to run in this race.

But when you see the top 2 finishers out of the Preakness

Stakes coming here, it's just a reminder not only of the star

power of some of these horses because people are legitimately

excited about journalism being here, but that this is still

very much a grade one. It's still very much an

important race in our three-year old program.

Well, John Hines. Did a great job getting

journalism. But you know, when you look at

the Triple Crown and I'm not going to get into a discussion

about timing the Triple Crown, I have my own old school belief

that it should stay as it is. But having said that, you know,

it always made sense for sovereignty to be going to the

Travers Matzo Hall of Fame trainer.

You know, he was destined to take that path.

And you know, horses, you know, running for year end honors,

Breeders' Cup, they don't always want to tackle each other in

every single race. Credit journalism for money in

every race. But you know, then the horses

need a break after the Triple Crown and Monmouth is position

so that the Haskell is like the first big race back and horses

come here year after year and journalism was like it made the

race. Not that I'm sliding anybody

else in the race, but having journalism come to Monmouth Park

for this race makes it very, very special.

Not this, you know, Bob Baffert's going for his 10th,

you know, Haskell, and he's always been good to us and goal

oriented. Is Goskar's a great mistake?

Sweater and a really good second in the Preakness.

Bracket Buster won our prep, you know, but it's a good solid

field to bake. But, you know, do I wish maybe,

you know, tracks weren't on top of each other?

So we get 12 horses instead of eight.

But look, it's going to be a terrific day.

And I think that year end, yeah, I can't predict what's going to

happen with the Travers. But, you know, journalism steps

up and wins this race and sovereignty, you know, wins the

Travers. It's going to make a hell of a

Breeders' Cup Classic I always think of.

This race as the real time that I start to look forward to the

Breeders Cup, because I know coming out of here we got the

United Nations, we've got the Haskell.

I at least know some of those runners.

They're ones that you know selfishly a lot seated person as

well. Do you have do you find yourself

doing that and how important is that link to the Breeders Cup

classic for the house? It's extremely.

Important and it's always been a good link to the classic.

A lot of the horses that run here go on when year end honors.

But you know, we have a great undercard too.

You know, the racing office and John Hines, you know, before

him, you know, Bobby Kalina, you know, the big days are what's

getting it done for the industry these days and putting all these

stakes together and making a giant day for racing is what

it's all about. South.

Last year we set a handle record.

The year before we set a handle record.

I won't predict what's going to happen tomorrow.

Weather always plays a little bit of a role.

But I think this this does, you know, not that the Triple Crown

doesn't, but I start looking forward to the Breeders Cup when

I see the horses run here. And, you know, I certainly

follow them on the Triple Crown trail also and the New York

races and the California races. But we kind of root for the

horses that are these races. And you know, Monmouth has, you

know, held its own for the year end honors and Eclipse awards

and championship Breeders' Cup races.

And it's exciting, it really. Is you mentioned these undercard

races, I have to very selfishly admit United Nations is if not

my favorite, oh man, if not my favorite turf race in North

America every year. It's up there.

I love it. I I think it's just a

spectacular race every year. The Molly pitcher, you know, the

matchmaker, these kinds of races on the undercard, how important

are they to your overall success here?

Oh, extremely. Important you know the the

undercard. The Haskell is of course the

pinnacle of the day, but each division has an important race

that's represented here over the three day weekend at Monmouth

Park. And I think that the undercard

really, I looked at it the other day, I was impressed with my

team at the horses they were able to get to come.

And I think that those races will ultimately end up producing

some of the year end classic winners.

Yeah, I think. I was very, yeah, I, I agree.

I was very, very pleased to see the undercard.

Not surprised. I was going to say surprised.

I was not surprised, very pleased to see the undercard.

The way that it's set up. Dennis Strasen with us here.

He's part of the leadership team here at Monmouth Park.

I do want to ask you about some of the wagering options here at

Monmouth because it is different than other spots around the

country. I find myself when I'm on track

here watching both the pair of mutual numbers and the fixed

odds numbers. You were part of the movement to

get fixed odds here. Why did you want fixed odds

about the park? So first of all, going back a

little before that, when the horseman took over the track,

Governor Christie was going to close the track if someone

didn't step up to the plate. Sure, we lost all our subsidies.

You know, he didn't give any support to racing.

He said you got to stand on your own 2 feet, control your own

destiny. But when I asked him about

sports betting, he said, I'll let you run with the ball, you

know? So we took up a challenge that

took eight years to get sports betting done.

And everybody kind of said I was tilting at windmills and I was

crazy and could never win the case.

And we lost eight times in court.

People started telling me, stop spending your money, stop paying

legal fees. But I was determined.

I thought if we could get to the Supreme Court.

And each time we had a loss, it created a road map of how to go

forward. So sports betting, you know,

ultimately was successful in the Supreme Court, gave us a revenue

base here to help us sustain the industry.

But what it also did is it kind of targeted me as someone was

willing to try anything. And so they came to me, you

know, from Australia, the bet makers guys, and they sat down

here pre COVID and they gave me a pitch that was kind of simple.

It was we have 30 million people in Australia.

You have 300 million in the United States.

Your handle is 12 to 14,000,000. Our handle is 20 billion.

Rather your handle is 23 billion over there.

Now. You really ought to try this,

you know. And so I wrote legislation, I

moved it forward with our legislators with the support of

the governor at the time, and we got fixed odds done.

But having said that, the other tracks and jurisdictions around

the country are slow to come. Yes, they are.

Some need legislation, some need Gaming Board approval, some

operators, you know, have a mindset that it's going to

cannibalize the power mutual. So I think has that happened

here? No, not at all.

OK, So what we did? Is we started with win place

show because that's about a third of your total handle.

So we're only putting a certain amount of risk and we got a

significant guarantee on an annual basis.

So I always thought the guarantee would, you know, make

it safe. And it has.

OK. But, you know, there are other

jurisdictions that talk about coming aboard, like New York,

right? Dave O'Rourke is very high on

fixed odds. But they had other priorities.

First they had to get the money for Belmont, you know, which now

they've done and they're going to build the magnificent.

Oh, exciting, huh? Wonderful, right In the city.

It's just spectacular. I'm really excited about that.

Yeah. But you know.

They're believers in fixed odds and I think they'll get that

done in the near future. I think that the Strana group is

probably close but have not come on board yet.

I think without knocking anybody, when I talked to

Churchill, they told me over our dead body, you know, that

they're not believers yet. I think they should be.

But, you know, that's their decision.

I'm not going to criticize them. I'm not going to support, you

know, staying out of it. But they'll figure it out at

some point. But I think fixed odds has a

really big future in this country.

But in what way can you can? You extrapolate on that.

Can you talk about why you think fixed odds will play well with a

new generation of betters? I I will.

In a minute. OK.

What I wanted to say was that we were also the first to try

exchange wagering and exchange wagering failed only because we

couldn't get the other jurisdictions to come on board

and offer their signals. But exchange wagering and the

part that I'm hoping will come back, the unique part about that

is there's no money there because you could bet once the

horses break out of the gate until they cross the finish

line. And now with sports betting with

all the in play action being a large percentage, I think

there's a future to bring back exchange wage at some point.

But the reason that I said fixed odds has a big role is that my

experience here and I'm a wanderer so to speak.

So I wander around the track and talk to customers, and one of

the biggest complaints I always had was you guys are letting

people bet after the horses break out of the gate.

Because I bet at 2:00 to 1:00. And by the time the horse got to

the quarter ball, you know, it was 3 to 5, four to five, and

you must be doing something wrong.

And that's not true. Everybody knows that that

understands the business, but the public perception is

different. And whether I like it or not, I

don't want to get on a long topic of the Caws at this point,

but it is true that if you have a favorite and you know, you bet

the horse, even even money, you could be one to five, you know,

way after it breaks out of the gate.

And people don't like that. But when you talk to the younger

demographics and they're used to sports betting and they're used

to the odds and they're used to getting a return on their money,

they like fixed odds because they know that when they make

their bet, if they're being offered two to 1/3 to 1/5 to

1:10 to 1:00, that's the odds they get later on when there's a

payoff. So I think that the younger

demographics get it. I think some of my

contemporaries and those that are older than I, you know,

don't want to learn something that so they're comfortable with

what they're doing. I can sit in the box with them

for two hours and I can say, OK, you got $12.00 back for your

$2.00 bet. If you bet fixed, Dodge would

have gotten 23. And they said I'm happy winning.

Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, right. But.

The sharp betters and the younger demographics, you know,

that's important to that. I watch them both, yeah.

For sure when I'm here, yeah. And.

You know, it's not happening right now because we have a

little immigration issue with one of the guys from bet makers

that used to do our paddock show.

So I had trouble getting back. But when it was here every race,

you know, he would be in the paddock on our show and it would

be explaining these were the paramutual odds.

This is fixed odds. And you know, as people listen

to that and they get educated, they get it.

And I think that if you look at the models from around the world

and some of the, you know, more sophisticated betters, they're

real believers in fixed odds. But it won't be successful if we

don't get the larger tracks and their signals is there.

Is there one for you that is more profitable for the track or

does it seem to work itself out? Because obviously in the takeout

model, you know how much you're getting per dollar on a WID bet,

for example, but on a fixed odds bet it's, it's very different,

right? You have to have money ready to

go to hand to a customer as opposed to being essentially a

Western Union where you are just facilitating the the

transaction, right? Like, like, I hate to say what

I'm about to say, but there's not one day of racing where I

make money on the Para mutual handle.

Got it. Now the operation costs too

much, you know, even if you talk about a blend of 20% on the take

out, we're giving 6.6 to the horsemen, we're paying a host

fee. You know, we're paying the other

tracks. You know, we have operational

costs. You know, the people that don't

have a backside, you know like an app which just doing an ADW,

I mean they don't have the expenses I do.

So while paramutual is important and the handle growth is vital

to our existence, it's not as profitable as people think.

Like if you let's just use a number, for example, 20 million

for a Haskell, they can sure, people think there's a profit

there, right, Right. You know, right.

Look at the persons that we're paying, correct.

Look at the costs that are involved.

Yeah. Fixed odds, you know, is

different. The horsemen certainly get their

share, but you know, we get a fixed guarantee that helps the

bottom line. But at the end of the day, I

think that with fixed odds, you know, assuming that we get, you

know, more growth, it opens a world of opportunity.

So we're about to, you know, which is taking too long,

frankly. But we have a deal with naira

Bets now. So naira bets is coming into the

state kind of like a gatekeeper. So it's not going to be just an

exclusive for four New Jersey bets.

So naira bets will come in, they can sub license every sports

book in ADW that wants to participate.

And as time goes on, I believe that with all the apps

participating, not only is it going to grow our handle, but

those that choose to participate in fixed odds like we did in

2018 and 2019 parlays on Haskell Day.

Pick fours with three legs on our races here at Haskell into a

ball game and we got crossover wage and we got people betting

on horse racing that never placed a bet before and vice

versa. We had some of our horse racing

players that now are betting sports.

So combining all that stuff is great.

Plus, when you see everything on an app like right now, I hate to

say it, but horse racing, which I love, you know, is a blip on

the total handle in the world of family money, no doubt about it.

Whereas, you know, on sports betting, I mean, tennis has like

10% of the handle, you know, but they're betting huge sums on

sports. And now if you have it on all

the apps and smartphones and it appeals to younger demographic,

you have at least 20 times the amount of eyes looking at your

product. We have more content than any

other sport in the world and you can bet 24/7.

We learned during COVID people want to bet.

They'll bet on Korean ping pong and Russian table tennis and

whatever they can. It's how my podcast got popular.

Is that we started in fall of 19 Arkansas Derby day rolls around

on traditional Kentucky Derby day.

Our numbers went up 10 times or something, and since then I've

been able to do this for a living.

Yeah, COVID was an incredible example, but it.

Doesn't stop there. I mean, I think the formula for

the future is you have to make your brick and mortar venues,

destination spots. You have to.

Have. Alternative revenue sources.

We're about to. We're building a $20 million

Caesar sports book on the property to supplement what we

currently have. But we're also in the

development business now. So we're building 298 units

across the street on a parking lot that, you know, rarely gets

used. We're doing a youth Sports

Complex. We're doing a hotel and when

handled right, you know, all of that brings in incremental money

to the track to support its future infrastructure.

And we just signed an 87 year extension to our lease, you

know, so we're going to be around a long time.

I I. Passed a new development by the

old, the old army station here or whatever military operation

was here. Brand new apartments look

beautiful. And I thought, oh good, some new

customers from Monmouth Park. So I'm thinking like you, Dennis

Fort. Monmouth is being the, yeah, we

have, right, Netflix, That's what we have on Netflix that's

coming in there. It's exciting and it's exciting.

And they're gonna do like the West Coast.

This will be their East Coast hub, right?

They're going to have, I think they're spending $10 billion

over the next 10 years, and it's really making the area grow and

it's going to produce more customers.

But racing needs to cater to the younger demographic.

And I think that, you know, wagering on apps and wagering on

sports and racing and fixed odds.

And, you know, the other thing that I think is important, which

we are doing is when you see fixed odds and power mutual side

by side, you know, you could take your pick at what you want

to do. I love it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Personally, I really love it. Last one we'll let you get back

to Haskell Day preparations when you see the renovations and the

start over essentially both in Queens and in Baltimore as as a

spot that's in between those two and part of a larger East Coast,

you know racing system that includes Delaware Parks and Penn

National, whatever it might be. Does that does that give you

hope that there's going to be a lot more horse racing around

here for a long time? You talk about this 87 year

lease for you all here, but frankly, without a Maryland or a

New York, it'd be pretty difficult to keep the New Jersey

program going. Yeah, well, I.

Think we'll always be able to keep going.

I mean, I have faith in New York.

NY to me is the biggest jurisdiction in the country.

And, you know, it's like the Mecca of the best horses in the

world. I'm not putting any other track

down. I'm just saying, you know, for

me it's New York. Other people may say it's

Churchill for them, others may say it's Del Mar for them.

Others may say Saratoga, but Saratoga is part of the naira

system. But one thing I would tell you

is that before I took over the lease here, Morris Bailey, who's

a developer and a horseman, you know, brought in a company

called Populus, which is the same company that's doing Naira

and Maryland, and they gave us a vision of what we could do here.

We've done some of it. We're continuing to do the rest.

But Mars Bailey, who's our development partner, has big

visions from on part for the future too.

So it's not going to end with what we've talked about so far.

Fantastic. All right.

Well, he's Dennis. Grayson, of course, appreciate

him jumping on Blood Force Monday with us here.

Well, happy Haskell, so nice to finally meet you.

And I appreciate you jumping on. It's a pleasure.

Very. Much.

All right. I appreciate that.

All right, Unmute. Myself there.

There we go. Dennis Drazen from the

leadership team there at Monmouth Park talked with me.

That was Friday, before the Haskell, of course, but so many

topics, Sean. I could do like 6 hours on that

part, but there was something that he said in there that makes

me an absolute crazy person as I pull my eyeballs out of my head.

It because I agree. With him completely, which is

we, we need to understand a couple of things about our sport

moving forward. And by the way, this is Louis

Roubo's opinion and not that of anyone else affiliated with a

blood horse or anything else. I remember a couple of years ago

and I'm going to use a, a, a specific person as an example

because I think of them as a friend.

I hope she does it with me as well.

It's something that I really respect as far as how much they

pay attention to the sport is keep them free now.

I remember a couple years ago she was really upset.

Sean, I'm sure you remember when they moved the Classic at the

Breeders Cup to earlier in the day so that they could.

Show. A college football game after

the horse racing and a lot of people in the industry were

really upset. Were you one of those people?

I just want to know where I'm at.

OK. You were, Yeah.

Yeah, I. That doesn't make sense putting

a classic not as well, especially last year when it was

like in the middle of the card, there were four races after it

Oh, that just threw off the whole day right, so you're.

Completely wrong about this and here's why.

So the, the, the thing that we need to be doing in horse racing

is what Dennis is trying to do in New Jersey, which is that you

make it a gambling option alongside other gambling

options. OK.

So as football becomes something you can bet on and, and whatever

else, I think it's way better, way better for horse racing to

be on right before a Notre Dame football game then on before

some rerun on NBC. I'm not exaggerating that if

that's why they move it to be on NBC, to be on the big stick

before Big 10 game or before, you know, whatever, that's going

to have millions and millions and millions of people watching.

That's the best thing for horse racing.

And so I disagree with you. I disagree with Caitlin.

Well, let me just say. I disagree or I agree with you

on that. I like it being back-to-back

with the football. Just put the other Breeders' Cup

races earlier in the day and move it up, right?

We don't need all the other card races at our breeders races.

We can put those there, right, I think.

I just I don't like the order, but I.

Do agree with you that it? Should be on the back there.

Were 3 or 4. Before the card, they could

easily run those. At the end.

There's still $300,000 races. It's not like the jockeys are

going to run away from running in those races or something.

And so I'm with you on that. I don't know the best way to

schedule it. But what I'm getting at is in an

era, and I bring this up pretty often, Sean, in the same

election cycle, the people of Florida voted for Ron DeSantis

and to end dog racing, it's never, it's never been less

popular to race animals in the United States.

It just is OK. It's never been less popular.

We need to make horse racing as normal a product as absolutely

possible. And the best way to do that be

on TV right before football, be on TV after a baseball game, be

at a track like Monmouth where you can walk downstairs and

you've been you've been there a bunch.

That Caesar sports book is right there on the 1st floor.

The actual brick and mortar sit down bar is right there.

The door you have to walk into the racetrack to get to it and

he talks about that brick and mortar thing and I, I kind of I

kind of did one of these Sean, because everybody oh, digital,

digital, digital. He talks about destination

spots. We talked earlier in the show

about how big the crowd was, how young it was at those places.

Dennis is Dennis is playing chess here.

I mean that's absolute chess. No, just get him in the

building. And if we have to do that with

sports wagering to keep this horse racing thing going, good

on us. And, and to me, that is a model

that can work this. We're completely dependent on

the legislature Stuff never works because elections happen

and things change and democracy and all the stuff, right?

That for sure doesn't work. But if you can line it up like

Dennis is talking about where not only are there a bunch of

betting options on horse racing, but we've put it alongside the

other menu of wagering. And I know Frank's very, I wish

you were here this week. Frank would be screaming right

now. But I think I think there's

something there, and I think Dennis gets it in a way that

many people in the industry simply don't.

Yes, I. I agree with that.

Listening to everything he said was very interesting there.

But I agree with you on the, you know, having it be paired

alongside these other options. It's the way to go, Yes, Right.

Yes. Now, like Derby is its own

thing. You know, you wear the hats and

the parties and everything else. I understand that that's a

that's a national holiday as far as horse racing is concerned.

But if we want races like the Traverse or, you know, the

Arkansas Derby or, I don't, the Cigar Mile.

Get away from the three-year. Old races, even the cigar mile,

whatever. If we want those to be national

races, we need NBC to cover them.

But NBC ain't going if if people ain't watching.

They were at the hassle. Why?

Because people watched the hassle.

That's why. But they also nestled it during

other sports coverage, during baseball, during other things.

And so it is, look, I, I just, I'm unbelievably passionate

about this weird point that I'm passionate about, which is that

I just, I really think one of the best things horse racing

could do the next 10/15/20 years is just put horse racing next to

every other sport that it can. Every, every basketball game,

every football game, every ice hockey game, every baseball

game, Just have it be the next thing where we don't even think

about it. Because I, I, I think that's the

best way forward for the sport. Yes.

And I think, I believe. You and Frank talked about it.

Was it last week when we were talking to the about the the

gaming conference, we're just having horse racing on the same

apps as your other sports? Dennis was talking about that,

yes. 100% Yeah well that pick 4 where it involves Mets.

Like the Mets? Game was part of a pick four.

Yes, please put us alongside. That's what I want.

If the Horsemen get their money, we're good.

That's. This shouldn't be complicated.

But I'm, I really appreciate Dennis.

He sat down for a very long time and and I'm sure you've had this

moment, Sean, where you're like you're 15 minutes into an

interview and it's the day before the Haskell.

I mean, these people are busy, right?

I mean, that place was Friday was I had to learn the the

security codes just to get around in the in the press box

because everything was locked up.

Everybody was doing everything else.

I'm totally fine but the. We got to a point.

And I just could tell he had another point to make.

He had another point to make. We needed to keep that

conversation going. So I appreciate that.

It's like 25 minutes, a very, very long time.

And frankly, I hope he doesn't send me one of those lawyer

bills because those guys get paid by the air.

Shaw, you're. Paying that one.

I wasn't part of that interview. I was watching the shoe of.

Saratoga. You're paying that one.

I'm immediately. Forwarding it to Frank, that's

what we're doing on this show. It's great to Frank.

That's the. Price for missing the episode

this week Oh man all right, so we.

Talked to Sandman's ownership earlier in the show.

We look forward now to the Whitney here on Saturday, or not

the Whitney Jim Day. You're a week ahead of us.

I you. Know what it was?

I watched White Barrio work this morning so I had that on my

mind. But looking forward, look, five

horses here, this is always kind of a tough spot right after the

Haskell, but we do get sovereignty, we get Sandman in

here. MO Plex returns after a win.

I thought this was a really interesting spot for MO Plex

coming out of that Ohio Derby where I thought he did

everything right. And if you wanted to get excited

about a horse that might be on the come up, MO Plex could be

one of them. And he's going to get the.

Race set up, probably. He's in against a bunch of

horses who don't usually show speed.

We'll see what Jonathan was talking about trying to get some

of that speed back in the Sandman.

We'll see whether or not that puts him in a position to

tricking test with Moplex. We saw Sovereignty sit closer

when he had to in the Belmont. It's going to be really

interesting to see. Even though it's only five

horses, this is going to be interesting to see how it shakes

out. I think this is.

One of those in juniors, Juniors, no dummy, and I'm not

calling any other jockey a dummy.

He's going to know that they got to do the Belmont again because

there isn't going to be a ton of paste.

Moplex is going to be it. They got to sit off a Moplex.

Mike I This is where it gets fascinating for me.

Sean it's not ten very cool. Everybody's cooler than me.

John's like it's 9 panels. I I never use the word panels.

I'm not cool enough. The well, maybe you need to.

Start get yourself a little cooler.

I just need to be cool, these Jersey guys.

Is it too late? For you to be cool, is that?

Yeah. I mean Louisville.

In a purple shirt. Like, it's just not going to

work out for me, Sean. And the the I, I think at 10 you

love sovereignty, but I think at 10 you also love Sandman.

And that's why I I. Didn't I appreciated John

saying, oh, we're not going to work back from and because I was

going to ask about Breeders' Cup and then he he said that.

So I appreciate him saying that. But the other part is with

Sandman, he's going to have to pass sovereignty in this race,

almost certainly right, because he's not going to have that

early move that sovereignty has now he talks about works and he

talks about those things working and then being on the track and

breaking from the gate with a starter of those legs.

Very different thing we've seen so many times with horses and so

it'll be interesting to see how he responds.

Would it let's ask this a very different way.

If sovereignty doesn't win here, is it the upside of the year I.

I would say. Yes, hopping to a grade 2.

See, I don't know. Because now there is a Grade 1.

Winner in the field. If Sandman wins, he's already a

Grade 1 winner. It's not as though he's a

nothing here. He top, you know, 7th in the

Derby, 1/3 in the Preakness. This is a good horse.

Let's let's be clear about what Sandman is.

Let me get my reason. For why it would be yes and why

it would be no. So the reason why I'd be yes is

because he has easily at this point, he has easily handled

journalism in the last two races.

We know journalism's a freak. We know journalism's one of the

best horses in this country. We saw it again this past.

He's a winner. He knows how to win.

He just goes out there and wins and unless he's facing

sovereignty. So from that perspective, the

fact that if he lost this race and journalism is not in the one

beating him in this race, that does make it a surprise.

That does make it an upset, even if the second choice wins or

something like that. Now, why it wouldn't be a

surprise is we know Sovereignty's main goal is the

Travers. Yeah, we know when his main goal

was the Kentucky Derby, he did not come out fully firing in the

Florida Derby at the same mile and an eighth.

So, you know, at that shorter distance, they did not have him

fully prepped, having talked to Bill Mott after his second last

work. So the two works.

Back when he talked about the Jim Dandy, it again sounded

like, you know, we know this isn't the main goal.

We're just kind of using it to get us to the Travers.

So is he going to be fully cranked and ready to go?

I don't know. Which is why I wouldn't be

shocked. And when the race sets up the

way we're kind of expecting it to, where MO Plex potentially

could have an easy lead if something weird happens and he

just doesn't get the set up and he's second, it doesn't look

like he's gonna get there and maybe Junior just goes ahead and

saves him for the Travers. I won't be shocked by that.

So it could go I would be shocked to see him lose, but at

the same time, I would not be shocked to see him lose and I

would still expect him to run huge in the traverse.

So it's kind of the I'm 5050 on that on that question right now.

I could see it going either way. We also watched.

Him win the fountain of youth off the bench too.

So he's capable of coming off the bench when he's not beating

to win and winning a race, right?

So we've seen this before with sovereignty.

I'm not, by the way, I'm not pushing back at all.

I think everything you said is right.

Here's why he's not going to win.

Are you ready? Yes.

No one from Sovereignty's camp was on the show today.

So there you go, Don. Oh well.

I mean, yeah, we just Sandman. Buy a handle.

Buy a handle. How about that we gifted?

Sandman the victory this weekend, didn't we?

I have a whole. A panel.

How cool am I? Look at me, I say.

If we we need to, if we get another winner out of Oh Sand

that weekend, we need to make this blood horse bump thing an

official thing. We need to make T-shirts.

We need to make everything. Everybody should be showing up

at the track wearing it. We need to.

We need to get that going. You should have to pay to be on

the show. There you go.

All right. Yeah, we'll start charging.

Dude, come on, we're going to have owners calling us.

Please put me on the show. Oh, that's exactly.

Right. All right.

Well, we'll have. Plenty to react to and of course

we will start previewing that Whitney, not not the Dandy, but

the Whitney next week when we get back together.

And of course, another weekend at Ellis Park.

We'll also have coming up very soon, Kentucky.

Now it's preview day. Lots of good things going on in

horse racing coming up as we get you through the summer and into

Breeders' Cup season here on Blood Horse Monday.

Well, he shot Collins on the shore there.

Thanks for working on vacation, buddy.

We really appreciate you. And by the way, get the glasses

off and. Head back out there, I don't

really care. What people think of this?

I had such a spectacular time at the Haskell, not just with you,

but with our colleagues. Obviously Matt Dinerman, who was

on this show calls the races there just a an unbelievable

host no matter where he is. He really is just so hospitable.

Just a really great guy and man friend of mine he's he's he does

really good work for us at the turf riders.

Carlos Morales was up from from the three O 5, as the kids say

from Miami. And not only does he work his

tail off Sean, he's just another just spectacularly fine guy and

and I just it was really nice to get to spend time with him and

good picture of the four of us. If you ever wanted to know, if

you happen to listen to this thing, you wanted to know what

Sean looks like without sunglasses on, you can go check

that one out or you can check out every.

Other episode that we've ever done.

But don't do that. Go to Twitter and look at

Carlos. All right, so this has been a

great weekend. It really was. 25 episodes down

and hopefully many, many more than that to go.

He Sean. I'm Louis.

Thanks to John and thanks to Dennis for jumping on with us.

Don't forget folks, to get the magazine.

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