Behind The Scenes at KY Downs | Ken Kirchner

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Here's Louis Rabo. Hi, welcome back in 11 O clock

hour on a Thursday edition of the program.

This is Raboco ESPN 680 and one O 5 seven trackside Kentucky

downs, our annual trip down here, our 12th annual trip down

here on ESPN Louisville day down here at a Kentucky downs.

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kentuckydowns.com for all the great information of all the

great things that are happening down here.

Use the little code at the end there slash live racing to get

into all the great things that are going on all the races on

Saturday, 4:00 to 6:00 PM over on NBC as well.

So if you want to throw that on alongside all the great college

football action this weekend, you are certainly welcome to do

exactly that. And I'm really pleased to

welcome in a new friend of the show.

How about that? Ken Kirchner joins us here on

the program. Ken, good, good morning.

Thank you. If you are in charge of the

weather, good job. This is a good job by you.

I will happily take credit for this beautiful day.

Oh. Man, we were, we were just

talking about this right before we went on and it was 100° last

year and I mean every bit of 100°.

Last year, Oh yeah, the heat index had to be over that.

It was just brutal. We had to actually speed up all

the races to, rather than 30 minutes in between it was 20 to

22 just to keep the horses from being on the track or in the

paddock for as long and fortunately everybody made it

around the track safely. Everybody was good and it

worked, you know, But it was, as you say, it was just brutal last

year on the opening day. So you're a guy and if someone's

listening right now has ever played in a handicapping

contest, they have you to blame, right?

I mean, this is essentially it's right in this one.

Is that Ken, you were in the early days especially, you know,

the NTRA puts together these national handicapping

championships, certainly the Breeders Cup contest as well.

Why, Why did you get involved in those?

Is it pair mutual enough? What are we doing here?

Well, I mean, when I first started, I learned that racing

as a handicapper in the early 80s.

So that was always my focus. So when I ended up running a

racing Commission for eight years and then I worked, got

hired by Breeders' Cup in 96 to manage all of their wagering

operations. Well, they had a very NTRA was

formed in 99 or 98 and the idea came up from Steve Crist.

It was editor of the Daily Racing Forum and, and just one

of the best writers in the business.

He had the idea that there should be a national

handicapping event. And so I got charged with the

duty of putting that together. So I wrote up all the plans.

We lined it up, headed to Vegas for the first one and then I

managed the event for the first seven years.

And you know that very first year, I think purse total purses

were two or $300,000. Now it's almost $4 million in

prize money. So in 25 years, this event has

become a Goliath in the business and you have 700 entries, you

have thousands of people trying to qualify for the National

Handicapping Championship. And I couldn't be prouder of the

way it's turned out. And in terms of the fan

engagement, and that was what it was all about then.

And we did the same thing in 2009 when I started the Breeders

Cup Betting Challenge. That was a totally different

perspective. That was in relation to the

World Series of Poker, which had taken off a few years before.

So at Breeders' Cup we said well, OK, why not a handicapping

tournament that matches that. So we put up a $10,000 buy in

and that's now a million and a half, $2,000,000 tournament with

it's the best live money tournament.

I have players tell me all the time, thank you.

But they also say just what an event it is because you're

betting thousands of dollars on the best horses in the world.

And the handicapping conundrum of the Breeders Cup is that, and

it's similar to here. Yeah.

The handicapping conundrum here at Kentucky Downs is just

sensational. So yes, I contest.

I I love them. We have a big contest coming up

here on September 6th. It's a $2500 buy in $1500

bankroll, 1000 to the prize pool.

It's called the King of the Turf.

It's all day on September 6th, all 12 races, and the winner

gets what's the championship belt, which is styled after a

boxing. Yeah, World Wrestling Federation

kind of thing. Yeah, fantastic.

You can wear it around and these guys are so proud when they

witness. That's great.

Show it to all their friends. Kate Kercher with us.

We're down here at Kentucky Downs, opening day, of course,

of their 2025 meet today. Ken's in charge of the weather,

so we thank him for that for sure.

But in these contests, I tell people.

So one of my, my favorite things about horse racing is that it's

not just the wagering, it's not just the, the how fast the

horses are, it's the totality of the experience.

And one of the things I always talk about is I think the best

race I've ever attended is Kentucky Derby 150 because the

finish and, and one of the biggest parts, Ken, was the

crowd reaction. Oh my gosh, Churchill Downs that

day, the noises, they all hit the line together.

And then the noise they made when the first replay went up

and we still had no damn idea won that race.

There's something about the sound in a contest of the guys

yelling at screens or they know they're deeper in that's

different than either. You know, I was at Aqueduct for

the Wood this year and they have such a cool culture on that

first floor of players together yelling at TV's around the

country do that's such a spectacular spot.

They're at Aqueduct. That's what the contest remind

me of, a sort of being at Aqueduct on a Saturday.

Well, we all know horse players can be a little vocal about

their selections and when you've got money on the line, they're

coming down the stretch and it's nip and tuck, nip and tuck,

they're going to get a little bit so boisterous about about

their selection. And we love that.

So I mean, that's the best thing about horse playing is being

able to look at a race, line it up, say, I think it's going to

develop this way. And then if it actually turns

out that way, you just feel so good at the end of it saying I

nailed that. I saw how that was going to

develop. It happened that way and I'm

cashing tickets now. You're the developer director of

wagering development, Excuse me, here at Kentucky Downs.

What does that mean? That means I oversee everything

from the simulcasting of the signal from here at Kentucky

Downs, we're going to go to every betting location of over

500 betting locations just in North America and then a number

of locations overseas. So I oversee all of the

simulcasting of that signal out. So all of these sites,

contracts, etcetera, etcetera. But then also it means putting

together the betting menu. What bet types are on each race,

how they flow into each other, how that works in terms of pick

threes, pick fives, win, play, show tries, all of those kind of

things. Putting that together along with

designating post times and working out things like that as

far as the wagering goes. Are you seeing bets around the

country that you see and you think that's a good bet?

You know, so for example, one that I really enjoy is in

Southern California, they've moved to, you know, that $3 base

minimum bet on a late pick three or, you know, Horseshoe

Indianapolis has a $1.00 pick four.

These sorts of bets that I, that I think are, you know, when you

raise the minimums, for example, seem to work out now Kentucky

downs because the field size and the unpredictability of some of

the races may be raising those minimums might not be those

sorts of things. But what you know, what are you

looking at around the country that you think, man, that's a

cool bet? Well, I, I think that in terms

of our betting menu, you know, I like the fact that because we

have such large fields, I like the $2.00 player, the $5 player,

$10 player. You know, you need something to

keep those folks engaged. I know the Caws are out there

and the other big betters, they're going to find action no

matter what. But I like low risk, high

rewards. So that's why we have $0.50 pick

fives, you know, 50 Cent pick threes, trifectas, $0.10 super

factors, right? I think those bets appeal to

people in trying to the way racing's developed, people

chasing bigger. Pay yes.

Right. Yep.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, I still think win place and show when betting it in

particular has its place because at tracks like this where you

have 11 horses, no doubt the average win payout is $15, seven

for place, 5 for show. So and across the board bet Nets

you $27.00. So for $6 you're getting 20.

So you're getting over 4 to 1 on your money.

So $20 across the board makes a lot of sense.

So there's a lot of those things that I look at when putting this

together, Beth types around the country.

Every track is so unique. And some of these tracks that

tend to have shorter fields, no. Effects get galloped, yeah, but.

They have to get creative as to how to drive handle.

Yeah. No, it's interesting.

Yeah. Like I said, with field size

here, that minimum makes sense to keep it a little more of a

minimum, right? Yeah.

It really does simply to allow the $2.00 player a chance to get

in the pools and and you know, get a decent return on number

dollar. Ked Kirschner with us, he's the

the director of wagering development here at Kentucky

Downs. You cap out at 20% on the take

out of any of your wagers. Does that?

Is that important to you? Because it is important to us,

the. Horse player, yes, it's

absolutely important. We have the lowest blended take

out in the country of any race track and that's that's on

purpose. So we feel that it's crucial for

the players to be able to get decent return on their dollars

and that's why the low take out is there.

Do you think you'll always stay with the traditional pick 6?

This first year we've done pick 6, so we'll see.

It's a $1.00 pick six that we're initiating this year.

We'll see how it goes. How many, how many carryovers

you think we're going to get, Ken?

I would say 2. OK.

All right. We'll see how how it turns out,

but the pick 5 has been our biggest bet that averages over

$600,000 in the pool and the average payout is $23,000 on the

pick 5 for a $0.50 bet. So you can see the low risk,

high reward in the pick five. In the pick four, what's the

dollar pick six? We're going to see how it goes.

You know, we really don't have a basis to judge what how the

players are going to react here, but based on where what they're

doing in California and New York, right, We're hopeful that

it it attracts some attention and yes, there's a good chance

that one of these days we may see a carry over and that'll

help handle the next. Step pick six with fields, these

sizes are going to be, you know, it's going to be a real chance

of carry overs for sure. When you look at the the pick 6

for example, and you say, hey, it's the first year we've had

it. Take us behind the scenes for

those of us who don't have your job, did you have to get

approval from the government? I know these things are really

regulated. You have to go to the racing

Commission and say, hey, we want to have a pick six and they have

to say yes, it's OK for this or whatever.

Do you have to do those kinds of things as?

Far as regulations, that's exactly right.

OK, yes, the Kentucky Horse Racing and Gaming Commission

must approve all of the bet types that you have.

So there's an annual submission and we did have to go to them.

That. The way the power mutual rules

are written, there's all types of bets in there.

Everything from win, place, show and how they calculate that to

what we call pick N bets, which are unlimited.

It could be a pick three, it could be a pick seven, it could

be a pick 12, but there's different variations within the

rules of how you do that. This pool for our pick six this

year is going to be a 75% of the pool is going to be the major

pool. So if you hit 6 of 675% of that

pool goes to those tickets that have 6 of 6.

If you have 5 of 625 per, the other 25% of the pool goes to

those ticket. Holders and for reference, what

is what is the typical split? So for example, Keeneland has a,

you know, 4 out of five kind of pick five that kind of what is

the usual split 75. 25258020 something in that range.

So that's that's what we've gone with you.

There's a specific method in the rules that you have to designate

and we tell that to the stewards or to the Commission and they

they approved it and, and so that's what we're working under.

So in fact, if let's just say for sake of argument, the pool's

$100,000 net, so 120,000 -, 20% take out net is a 100,000.

Let's say 75,000 of that would go to people holding 6 of 625.

Thousand of that pool would go to holders of five of six

tickets if there is no 6 of 6. If there are No 6 of 6, then

that's 75,075% of the pool carries over to the next race

day. Lot going on here folks.

Ken Kercher with us. Luckily he has to deal with this

stuff and not me. Appreciate you jumping on the

program, but today I play pick threes here, Ken, because I find

I ran the numbers myself a couple of years ago and I found

that they were paying in the range of 850 to 900 to 1 was

essentially how the pick threes were working out here.

I also thought that allowed me some coverage.

I could go 3-4 wide each leg and not kill myself.

Put together like a $2530 sort of ticket a couple times a day.

Keep my bankroll under $100. Do you find you have players

that are picking spots like I am?

Oh yes, absolutely. That's that's the beauty of this

is that the bet menu you have rolling daily double S, you have

rolling pick threes. We now have three pick fives on

the card, multiple pick fours so players can pick and choose what

they are interested in. So if you want to play a, you

know, a 4 by 4 by 4 pick three, you know, basically you're

looking at $64 for a dollar, but it's a $0.50 bet.

So you can play that for $32 and get 4 by 4 by 4 and hopefully

cash it for, as you say, several $100.

And you you're able to do that through each of these types of

bets, whether it's a double or a pick four, pick five and be able

to structure your ticket to meet your bankroll and, and get as

much coverage or as little coverage as you feel is

necessary in each race. It is interesting to for example

the pick fours in 2023 paid $2700 and six 2764.

The pick fives paid 21,000. It is incredible adding one leg

is it not? I mean the pick sixes might be

really epic here. This.

Year. Yeah, they they really.

Could be able to. Payouts, no doubt about it.

But yes, that's the beauty of it is that, I mean, where else can

you get it over $20,000 payout for a $0.50?

Bet no, that's exactly right at the contest that's coming up.

Please tell people about it again and if someone hasn't

played before, would this be a good first one to try or would

this not be? Well, I'll tell you what would

be the good first one is today there's a $300 tournament online

with Express BET TVG New Jersey bets HPI in Canada, so you can

go online, sign up so. Someone has an account with any

of those? Any of those.

They can go sign up. It's a $300 tournament.

Yep, 150 bankroll, 150 to the prize pool, and the top players

in that will not only receive an entry into the National

Handicapping Championship, they'll also receive an entry

into the King of the Turf, which is the $2500 event.

So these are basically qualifiers for the King of the

Turf on September 6th, the $2500 tournament.

So we have a $300 tournament today online, and then on Sunday

a $400.00 tournament which will again award spots into the next

Saturday's King of the Turf tournament on September 6th.

So we're giving players an opportunity to go ahead and

qualify without putting up the full $2500 bankroll should they

show so choose. Well, you know, this was I

learned a lot. Ken, I really appreciate you

jumping on what what is your favorite personal bet?

Do you have one? You're just, you know, Churchill

out of Thursday, you show up, there's 8 races.

What are you betting on? I have now and this is largely a

result of tournaments and the way tournaments are structured

is that I've moved a lot of my betting to Xactas and Daily

Double S OK. So let's say for example in

today's third race, I'll play a $10 exacta.

Usually I'll put one horse key one horse over two others.

So that's $20 and then I'll back wheel it for another 20.

The the two second, I'll put them first and then my main

horse 2nd and then I'll roll that my key horse into two

horses and the double. So that's another 20.

So it's $60.00. So over the course of ten races

that's going to be a $600.00 outlay.

But the beauty is the average double payout and the average

exacta payout at this tracker $57.00.

So if you hit one of those at basically getting it for 10

times, all of a sudden you're at 570.

I break even. If I hit an exact and a double,

I'm up $600.00. If I hit 2 exactas and a double,

all of a sudden I'm up $1200. And this is a great day.

So and you could do that on a $2.00 denomination or a $5.

That's why I play pick threes. Exactly the same thing you're

talking about this. I only got to hit one or. 2

That's exactly. So that's the way I tend to

approach the races now. And today that, you know,

there's, there's a couple today. I, I've got a couple signed up

that, you know, I think Miguel Clemont has had such a great

meet up in, in New York. It's a great story of, of his

taking over the stable and hats off.

But you know, he's got two horses in races, 5:00 and 6:00

today. OK, I'm going to use those as a

double. Those are going to be my key

horses in, in those races. One is 6 to 5, so you're not

getting a lot of value. The other is 9 to 2 and then

back in the 9th and 10th race. I really like 2.

One horse in the 9th is Jim Devito's horse with Gafflione

up. It's a fresh horse coming off a

layoff. Yep, those run well.

Micaiah 6 to 1 and then the Tappet Stakes.

Neil Drysdale's very underrated. He sent four horses here last

year. He didn't win any, but three of

them ran second. So every one of them was well

meant obviously. So he's got a horse in the 10th

race in the stakes race at 12 to one that ran second here last

year in the Tappet Stakes. So awesome horse ran second last

year. He's coming bring him back.

Hopefully he's he's sharp. The other horse is the Wesley

Ward Mountain Bear in the stakes race.

So I've got a couple lined up today and if we get lucky we're

we'll celebrate tonight. Roll.

It into the weekend as well. Well, Ken, we appreciate you

jumping on Ken Kirchner down here at Kentucky Downs, Director

of Wagering Development. Good luck with everything.

Hopefully the pick six works out.

Do you think we'll hit it? We'll have a day where the the

five of six pays like 5 grand. Is there a chance with that

here? There's a chance for anything

here. I won't rule anything.

There you go. Well Ken, we appreciate you

jumping on. Again, it is ESPN Louisville

Day, our 12th annual visit down here for ESPN Louisville Day at

Kentucky Downs. Appreciate the KTDF, the

Kentucky Thoroughbred Development Fund for throwing in

14 and a half million dollars of the 30. $1,000,000 in purses

just in the 18th states races over 7 days here at Kentucky

Downs. Again, the Mint.

kentuckydowns.com/tickets if you are interested in coming to join

us here. Of course, General admission,

tailgating, parking free at the top of the stretch.

It's got to pass the hotel and turn and right in that part of

the parking lot. Jay Davis, we talk to him next.