BloodHorse Monday 5/12/25 | D Wayne Lukas

right, welcome in. It is a Horseshoe Indianapolis

edition of Blood HORSE Monday hanging out with Sean Collins up

here just outside of Indianapolis.

My name is Louis Rubio. Thanks so much for making us

part of your horse racing Week. Certainly the start of it as we

get into Preakness season. Deeply, deeply into Preakness

season. Some good news on the starting

gate there. Of course, we will start with

just that. But Sean, up here at Horseshoe,

this is a place that you and I, I, I don't want to use this term

very loosely, but I think we take for granted being this

close to where we live and being as fun and as frankly as nice as

it is. Yeah, definitely.

This is a place that's very easy for us to get to from down in

Kentucky. And it's one of those fun

atmospheres, whether it be Indiana Derby Day, which you

know, is one of the best race days of the year that I enjoy

going to. But also on a normal day like

today, it's always a fun atmosphere to come out and see

the races. They've got good fields going on

today, large fields going on today.

We got stakes races coming up here on a Wednesday later this

week. It's a pretty fun place to be.

It's one of the things, and we'll talk with Raising Rachel,

of course, later in the show, but I plan to to emphasize those

Wednesday stakes. If you're watching this and

you're a Triple Crown person or you are a, you know, oh, I'm a

Santa Anita. I'm a you know, I'm a Saratoga

big track don't don't miss out on Wednesday steaks at a spot

right. We're talking 11 and 14 in the

first two races as far as field size 8 and eight in the open

company there. But you know good turf racing as

far as 3 year old 3 year old Phillies, et cetera.

And so I don't sleep on this place is all I would say.

Exactly. Good place to make some money in

the. Middle of the week, No, that's

exactly right. Build that bankroll for the

Preakness on Saturday and we know now who's going to run in

it, Sean, by the time we are off air, it will be before the

actual draw itself, so we won't know post positions or anything

like that. Let's do this right away in an 8

or 9 horse field, which I think is what we're looking at by the.

Time. I'm not worried about post

position when you've got the full front stretch of the

piblico surface to make up. I'm not worried about someone

getting the 8 and thinking, Oh no, American promise can't break

from the eighters, I'm not doing that.

Are you similar on that? Yeah, I agree with that.

I think the only, the only cause for concern I would have post

position wise would be if journalism drew the rail just

because that would allow people outside of him to maybe try to

trap him. But other than that, I don't

think it really matters where anybody ends up being.

And even there from the rail, I think journalism would be able

to find himself the trip and he'd be OK with getting the

kickback. And it'd just be a matter of

when Alberto can find the opening to get him out of there.

So we'll see what they end up drawing.

I believe that's at 7:00 PM tonight, Eastern Time when they

draw the post position. So if you're listening to this

on Tuesday or later, those post positions are out.

But yeah, I don't. It's not like the Derby where,

you know, that post position could really impact, which

honestly this year I don't think it really played much of an much

of an issue. But I don't think it really

matters as much in the Preakness.

Maybe if we had a full 14 horse field and somebody's gonna be

way out there. Way out there, right?

But in the 9 horse field, I don't see that being much of.

An issue, Yeah. Frankly, what you just said

earlier, if it were a 14 horse field, I'd worry about who's in

the inside post, right? I mean, frankly, at that point,

then you're dealing with 13 horses outside.

But we're not going to have that kind of field here, Sean.

But we will have a good field. And I know that while lots of

consternation about sovereignty not making the trip, and I think

it's legitimate. It's legitimate if people feel

bad about it. I think that's totally within

their rights as a Triple Crown and a horse racing fan here in

the United States. But we do get the Derby favorite

in journalism. We do get a fan favorite in

Sandman. We do get a run back from the

coach who you'll hear from Wayne Lucas.

You and I got the sit in his office with him and considerably

A stunning amount of time with that man.

He should not have spent about 40 or 45 minutes with us, much

of it off the record, but whatever.

But it was it was incredible. He's sending American promise

we're going to get. I wanted to ask you about this

is this the future of what we should expect in the previous

because I don't want to put words in Godolphin's mouth, but

the American Triple Crown is is not a it's not on their their

bulletin board of goals. I don't think probably a

Godolphin OK. Even if there are quotes saying

that they're interested. He's looked pretty darn good.

OK, like he's he's OK. And it's OK to say out loud that

they're a global brand. And I think that they want to

you know, the Derby is a is a bigger race in the Preakness.

It's OK to say out loud. It just is right.

And frankly, winning the Triple Crown, yes, it's a, it's a

massive deal, but it is really the first goal.

And the one goal for them was to win the Kentucky area.

And so, but is this something we might see more and more of as we

move forward? Coming out of the Kentucky Derby

with 18/19/20 runners, 3 or 4 of them heading to the Preakness

and then a bunch of new shooters, I think this might be

the new reality. Well, I think we've seen that

several times in the last couple of years.

It seems like 3 is the magic number that's coming to the

Derby right now. It's like we've got three horses

that will come back each year. And that's and then we have the

small group of new shooters that are coming in and you know, as

far as you know, sovereignty and going that they're talking about

the wanting to lengthen, lengthen the year.

They were looking at the full year kind of comparison.

And so I know there's a lot of people that are, you know,

obviously anytime the Derby winner skips the Preakness,

there's always going to be a lot of talk about whether or not the

Triple Crown should be changed. But you are seeing we'll talk

to. Frank X has written about that

at bloodhorse.com. We'll talk to him later in the

Yeah, we'll talk. More about that in our opinions

on that a little bit later. But when you look at journalism

coming back, though, he very much almost won that race if it

was swapped the length and a half.

We do have the Derby winner coming back.

We have the horse that was the favorite in that race coming

back. Talking to Michael McCarthy this

morning, he said that if they were to run well in the

Preakness that they would at least consider going on to the

Belmont. So they haven't thrown that out

yet. So we are still seeing certain

trainers, certain horses, we are still seeing them go through the

five weeks now. Unfortunately we've had now 2

Derby winners in the last four that have not, not not including

all the, you know, the Mandaloon and all the up in the air of

whether who was the Derby winner at that.

Sure. So not including those.

So two of the last four, Rich Strike and now Sovereignty are

skipping the Preakness. So that's obviously going to

cause a lot of debate. But I also think, you know, we

had got into such a great string of luck where the Derby winner

always came back in the Preakness for so long and it was

bound to happen where, you know, eventually that was going to

end. You're going to have the horses

who don't come out of the Preakness so or come out of the

Derby so well and can make the Preakness.

And so you're going to, you're probably going to see this a

little bit more often now that people know it's OK to skip it.

Because I feel like a lot of times, maybe sometimes the Derby

winner just went because none of the other Derby winners have

skipped it. So I think that as we're going

to see it a little bit more often, but we're seeing with

journalism, we're seeing with Sandman that we do still have

trainers out there. We do still have horses out

there that if it looks like they're, if they come out of the

race, well they are going to run so and.

We're talking about McCarthy, Cassie and and Lucas.

I don't think of those three guys as being similar, no right

in their approaches or whatever else.

So to me that's a good sign that maybe we're just going through a

couple of year phase. Another thing we've talked about

on this show is all the older horses that are back to run this

year when we spent the last five years going, oh crap, are we not

going to have an older horse division with good horses in it

anymore because of breeding, because of whatever else that

seems to be healing itself as well.

I wonder if eventually we won't get the healing on the triple.

Crown side of things and you look at the the two horses that

did skip at the last four, both deep closers, which

traditionally in the Preakness doesn't seem to always be you

know, yeah, it's tougher and especially, you know you might

get some like you think. About an exaggerator or

something. You get an Exaggerator or Ron

Bauer, but for whatever reason it seems like the Derby winning

closers just always, they always get 2nd and 3rd.

And so, you know, you sit out and you wait.

Obviously I would like to see him in the race.

I would prefer to see, you know, them taking a shot at the Triple

Crown. I think these are the three most

important races that a horse can run in at this time of year.

Well, early the entire year as a three-year old.

So, you know, I would rather see him.

I'd rather see, you know, obviously the suck that we lost

Mystic Dan for the entire summer last year, but I would have

rather seen Mystic Dan, all three of these races than in the

traverse. Do you think of, do you think

the Belmont going back to Belmont will have an effect on

this because. I think so.

Here's. Part of what I think is going on

as well, and we can get into this with Frank.

I think guys see the mile and a quarter of Belmont and they

think that's just another race on the calendar.

Like a Dolphin's been telling us, like Michael Bannahan's been

telling us, we see this as the next race as part of a longer

calendar. The mile and a half is really,

if you do the Triple Crown and you run that mile and a half,

usually you need a little bit of time for your horse, right?

Like the Haskell might not happen, that kind of thing,

right. Then we see you in the Jim

Dandy, something like that. I wonder, I wonder if that mile

and a quarter actually, in a weird way, because it's shorter,

didn't disincentivize going to it, but rather incentivize

skipping the Preakness because it was just easier to get the

mile. And I don't know, but I think

for the Godolphin connections, that's absolutely the case,

yeah. Well, and I think we also saw

last year a horse like Resilience that decided to run

in the Belmont that probably wouldn't have if it was a mile

and 1/2. So we're seeing more, more

people are going to be, I think, willing to run certain horses

like this, more horses that would run, you would think of

the mile and 1/4 as their perfect spot.

Maybe sovereignty is like this where the mile and a quarter is

the perfect spot. You don't know if you would get

a mile and 1/2. So you do run the Preakness

because you don't want to put all your eggs in the mile and a

half basket versus now you know, he can get the mile and a

quarter. You know, that's right up his

alley. And so you're just going to wait

for that mile and 1/4? Race it's a fascinating dynamic

of the new shooters and if you are due to horse racing, thanks

for hanging out this blood horse Monday.

He's Shawn on Louis, a new shooter or someone who did not

run in the Kentucky Derby. So even a horse like Gold

Oriented who ran two weeks ago counts as a technically new

shooter here, right? But we get 5 truly new shooters

in River Times. Clever again, part of honor pay

Billy and Gozger. I'm interested in several of

these horses. The story of Heart of Honor is a

fascinating one. Father and daughter teaming up

second in the UAE Derby. Can I can I say this I love.

I'm more shocked this horse is running in the Preakness than

sovereignty. Not running in the Preakness.

Really. I'm more stunned that they

shipped over to Chicago, banned to Churchill, went through

quarantine at Churchill, gets on the track a little bit, and then

they're going to ban to Baltimore.

What? He should be on Van right now.

On their way as we record this. And he was.

I saw him this morning. He, I could tell you is

definitely happy to be out of warranty.

I could tell the it's getting a little warm on the track.

But you know, that's, that's excuse.

But with going through the quarantine and everything.

But yeah, I I'm excited to see him here.

He ran a really good race out there.

By the way, if it comes across as we not wanting that, I

definitely want that horse here. So I would be very clear about.

It yeah, yeah, it's, it's exciting to see him here.

It's exciting to see in a little international flavor, the

Preakness so. We also get, we also get the the

new shooters we want. We want to see if River Thames

can do this or not. Yeah, that's a horse we want to

see I. We're high on him back in.

The I was absolutely Oscar did the darn thing in the Lexington.

He looked great in the Lexington.

If we get a run back of that, he could be a real contender.

And he's his mother is 1/2 sister to I'll have another

previous winner and Derby winner from 2012.

So he's got the bloodlines to be good in here.

And he's this is the exciting part is we do have a couple of

horses. Gossgar Clever again is the

other one. I'm pretty high on that.

You know, they are on that part, that path where they're peaking.

And so they didn't make it for the Derby, they didn't make it

through the Derby prep races. But they're at the point where

they're developing now. And now we're going to see them

and it's going to, you know, that's one of the things that

makes the Preakness special with the new shooters is the top

horses that were in the Derby. Your journalism, your Sandman,

your American Promise. They do have to be come back off

the two weeks rest. You think about, you know,

handicap races back in the day, that's a little bit of a

handicap. Allow these developing 3 year

olds kind of jump up. Let's see what happens now, and

then let's see how the rest of year develops.

Perfect analogy. Yeah, that's why I work with you

exactly. He saw Gobbley Rd. hanging out

with you up here. Horseshoe Indianapolis.

But of course we want to remind you about our friends at OBS as

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summer. Really do appreciate the good

folks at OBS hanging out with us here on Blood Horse Monday.

All right Sean, so be honest. You and I lucky guys.

We get to go to lots of different spots.

We get to see lots of different races in person, but getting to

sit down in the coach's office the way that we did for that

amount of time, frankly, we did a fair amount off the record

after this interview as well. Give me a ranking.

Where does this fit? It's got to be a top.

Wow, yeah, that that's pretty high up there.

That's a pretty. That's a pretty remarkable

moment. You know, unfortunately, you

know, I was of the era, I never got to really kind of see the

peak of when Lucas was dominating the Triple Crown.

But obviously if I've watched a ton of it online, I've read

about a lot of it. So just kind of sitting there

and just hear his philosophies on things.

It was amazing. And then on top of that, you

know, one of the things that really impresses me with him,

this man's 90 years old. He hasn't lost any part of that

mind. He remembers everything.

He. Yeah, it's, it's incredible.

Not only that, not only that, young Sean, you will someday be

in your 40s like this guy. And you will look around and

you'll, you'll you'll get up off the sofa or after, after a

normal dinner. And you're, you're, you will

emanate a sound, a groan, if you will, when you get up.

You know who doesn't do that? Wayne Lucas at 90, dude is.

And it got sharp. And still get on a pony every

day. Every day.

Yeah, we had to literally walk around his pony to get in his

office. But you hear from him.

You hear about his philosophy. And I think frankly, and this

isn't running down at all, like his philosophy is my horse is

sound and he's in good form or she's in good form.

They're going to run in the spots where they I think they

belong, period. Conversation over American

Promise is my best 3 year old right now.

He's thinking that's the one I'm sending to the Preak.

Yeah. He's in good shape right now.

We don't we're going to get, frankly, we hear from Lucas the

turn around on the Preakness as quickly as we heard that

sovereignty wasn't good. Yeah, right.

I mean, it's like he knows pretty much right away and that

his horse is going to run. And we see that in this month.

Wade Lucas joined us in his office on Friday.

I We're the office Dewayne Lucas Barn here at Churchill Downs,

getting ready for Preakness 150. Do we?

Take for granted these 150 kind of numbers, don't we in horse

racing? Well, I tell you, when you're 90

years old like I am, it doesn't seem so bad.

I think I've been there 40 some years in a row.

The Preakness has been good to me.

I go every year if I can. There's something about that

stakes Barn, is there not? Where all of your colleagues are

there with you, that there's kind of an expectation Friday,

Saturday morning even obviously before that, that there's gonna

be some activity out there. You get to see all your friends

from around the country. That's a really great part about

Preakness. You know it.

The camaraderie is unbelievable for, you know, when we're

running for big money and it's tough competition, yet the

camaraderie for the Preakness is very, very admirable.

It's really good. And I, I've always had that

install there at the end, one or two or three or whatever we

decide to run and Bob Baffert will come down or, you know,

anybody that's there on that side and we'll sit around and

talk. And we never do that here.

So it really is fun. I remember one of my favorite

moments of the Preakness last year was the morning after

seeing you and Bob kind of standing out, looking at Cesar

Gray as he was getting the bath and just having a conversation

about. You know, I'm not sure if

anybody interrupted it, but we've got 15 between US.

I've won seven and Bob's won eight.

I don't know if we've covered 15 consecutive years or somebody

jumped in there and broke it up, but we've had pretty good luck

between us. It seems like it's one of you 2

in the winner's circle. Very often they're you're coming

in as the defending champion this year.

You won with Seize the Great last year.

Has that put any added pressure on you trying to go

back-to-back? No, but I really, you know, you

know, I've got at this point of my age, I try to, I really want

to get the the clientele, especially the new guys.

I got two really great guys that have been buying some nice

horses and everything and I'd like to give them that

experience. I've been there and I love it,

but I'd like to see them have it.

What was it about Sees the great last year that you just knew

coming out of that Pat de mile he was going to be ready in two

weeks at Pimlico? What was it about it last year

that you saw with him? Well, these horses sometimes tip

their hand a little bit and he did that.

Pat de Mile was very impressive for him.

That was his best effort up to that point.

And in analyzing the race afterwards before we make a lot

of judgments that aren't too accurate.

But after the race it it showed that he could get on that lead,

get in the cruising speed and just take it to him, wire to

wire. And at the half mile pole, I

turned to my wife and I said he's home free.

They won't run him down. He's gone.

American Promise is going to be on that same two week turn

around, but coming out of the Derby instead of the Pat de Mile

exceeds the Gray. Last year he didn't really get a

chance to run his race in the Derby.

How do you see him bouncing out of the race compared to how sees

the Gray was going into it last year?

Well, the big difference is that there's fourteen hit or less.

I don't know right now kind. Of right now we're going to 8 or

9 I think. Yeah, I don't think we even got

14, but that changes everything. You know, the Derby were 20

headed. It's a whole different animal.

But being in a race, we've got tactical speed and if it's eight

or nine, it's going to change a lot about how we can maneuver,

what we can do. We got a real big horse in

American Promise and he can't be checked, shut down and re brake

and keep restart. He just can't gather himself

like the little horses do. Baffert will put a couple of

quick ones in there and we'll we'll clock him a little bit.

But I like the idea that we don't have quite that big field.

That's good. That's the difference.

Head to Baltimore. He's Wayne Lucas, American

Promise. We saw him in his very best in

that Virginia Derby, obviously over one turn, but we also saw

Cesar Gray out of that one turn. Does that give you some hope too

as well? Yeah, I I think that there's a

couple of things here. The the configuration of the

track at Pimaco is not a, it's not a perfect Oval.

So that first turn, it's about an over 1/4 of mile down to that

turn from the gate. So you get a chance to maybe

maneuver and get in a position where you can get into that

cruising speed. If we get into that cruising

speed, we're going to be awful tough.

Now, American Promise, coming into this race, he's a son of

Justify, the Triple Crown winner from 2018.

Do you see any similarities between the two?

I know you mentioned he's a big horse.

Justify was a big horse. You see any similarities?

You know what was interesting? You brought up Justify we in

that Preakness shouldn't be justified.

It. Was.

Foggy, it was Foggy and he didn't I, we, I don't think that

Bravazo ever saw. You know him and if he did, if

he did, the way he was finishing everything, if he did, I think

been head and head with him, I, I think we might have burst that

one and I'm glad we didn't because that made a Triple Crown

horse and we needed that in the industry.

Got you, American Promise, because who knows what justifies

that career would have been right.

It's interesting you bring up that Justify race and you've

said, you know, to start this interview you've been going for

40 plus years to the Preakness. I was there too.

They shot. Out of a fog, about a 16th of a

mile to go. Have you seen anything like that

in your career? No, I, that was amazing, the way

that weather turned on us and everything.

And I, I didn't even I wasn't able to pick him up at the

quarter pole. I didn't know where the hell he

was. And then all of a sudden, just

like you said, all of a sudden, wow, here he come.

And I, I thought, you know, this is a photo, the word right

there, right there. There are four horses just shot

out of the fog. I got to say I'd never seen

anything like it, but obviously your experience a little more

than mine. Well, you have Nick Juarez

riding in the, you wrote him in the Derby.

He's riding back here in the Preakness.

Last year you won the Preakness of Jaime Torres.

Just talked about a little bit. You're giving these young

riders, these riders who haven't had the chance on the big stage

yet, just giving them the opportunity in these races.

Right. I've always lean towards trying

to help. I think it's a coaching

background. Maybe that's coming out of me.

You know, like Gary Stevens is the agent for Nick Juarez and I

started Gary. I remember back in the 88, they

said, my son said, you know, why don't we ride the kid from

Idaho? And I said, who the hell is

that? And he said, Gary Stevens, he's

over here working with me. And he's, I think he's, you

know, going to be a pretty good writer.

Sure enough, we put him on and went right to the Hall of Fame.

But. He's had some success.

Nick has got a lot of talent and I wouldn't use him if I thought

it was going to jeopardize our chances.

I he is not going to be in any way the fault the food get beat.

I don't think he's smart. He rides intelligent.

He's the right size. I like the small, you know,

small riders. And when he rode the in the

colonial and 1, he did everything we'd asked him to do

almost to the letter. So I, I feel real comfortable

with him and I'm I'm happy to give him that little boost.

You know, you're you're running American promise back on Iran

sees the grey last year and then we get the story, of course,

this year that sovereignty is going to go straight to the

Belmont. Do you have a reaction when you

when you hear the news? Is there is there a Wayne Lucas

reaction to that? Well, all I said is Bill, you

know, don't worry, we'll come over and pack everything for you

and get, get your all your tack in a trunk and you know, you

don't need to worry about it. You know, just rest.

We'll we'll pick up everything, get the horse on the band and

everything and get him out of here.

If you want to skip the Belmont too, go ahead.

Don't worry about the thing, we'll handle all that.

Well, take us back to 1980 with the preakness of Codex there.

What do you remember about that? Your first classic win.

Well, you know, I'd had a good career with the quarter horses

and we had switched over by then.

We were, you know, pretty well established, you know, over the

third beds. I think in 74 we switched

completely. And so we, you know, we had five

or six years of trying to. That was the first classic I

ever was in. I'm we wanted, I thought I said

to my son, I said, there's no big deal.

We'll go, we'll win a bunch of these, you know, and I didn't

know it was going to take eight years to win the next one.

Yeah, I, I enjoyed the big, the competition of the big races.

I, I at all my career, even early on, I like the, you know,

the, the, the toughness and trying to beat the, the best.

And so the classics fell right into place.

Got a little sign out there on the wall says 15 of them.

And we'd like to add a few more. We're seeing a change, you know,

Belmont Park under renovation. We're about to hopefully see

that similarly in Baltimore. You hopeful about those circuits

moving forward? I don't, I don't know what

they're actually going to do at Baltimore, but I know this the

last year. So it'll be a significant race.

Obviously the new new PIMCO I'm sure have a new flavor and look

different to everybody, but I I like the old one.

I I never thought the grandstand was that bad.

They they boarded up some of it and I thought Alice not that

bad. It was clean and comfortable for

me. So, but we'll, we'll go along

with it and it'll be interesting to see what they do.

Does that make you want to win this one a little extra just

since it's the last one? I think, yeah, I'd like to win.

I'd like to be able to say I won the last one on the old hilltop.

So we get a hi ho Piblico. Is that what it is?

Hi. Hi, Ho Piblico.

Yeah. I didn't know that.

Oh, man. All right.

So I think we have to ask, who else is going to Baltimore?

Who's coming? Who's coming with you?

You know, I'm, I'm taking a full set of horses.

I, I looked at those other stakes and you know, they're,

the purses are not that big, but they, they are prestigious races

like the Black Eyed Susan. Is it on your resume?

It's good, you know, and so I'm going to take one for that.

I'm taking one for the Pimlico special, taking one for the

Sprint. I'm going to take 6 heads and

counting, of course, American promise.

But we'll I enjoy it when we have a full day when they I

don't have to sit around, wait, wait, wait until 6:00 to run the

one that we want to win, you know of.

Course, historically special meant winner take all in those

races. Do you like the purse dispersal

or would you rather have a win take all in the Pimlico Special?

I don't know if I understand the question.

OK, so the the term special with races used to mean that whoever

won it got the whole purse. Would you rather have that set

up or would do you like the you know you can still get a check

for 3rd and 4th place? Oh, no, I I think it it, it

should always be 3rd, 4th, whatever.

Yeah, definitely. I don't the winner take all

would would eliminate send a lot of people home Sam.

Hurt the hurt the field size a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, right. Well, I think.

Really bring it down. I think that's the race that

Citation didn't walk over one time, so it definitely.

Doesn't help, yeah. Right.

I had won the walk over in my career, the Philly called Sharp

Cat and there was that Hollywood Park and it got down to 1 and

Alex Elise rode her and I told him just lope her around there.

So what did he do? He he went a mile and 136 or

something like that. I said, jeez, you know, there's

nobody but you out there. What the hell are you doing?

Like we could have just had this be a training day and entered

back in 2 days. Around there, next thing you

know, he's rolling mother. You needed to make sure he got

that win right. Track record very important.

That's right. Yeah.

Well, you mentioned earlier, you know, wanting to kind of get the

experience for some of your new owners, but what is it that

keeps you motivated to keep going after all these years?

I think the competition probably I enjoy it though.

I, I, as long as I can get on to my saddle horse and get out

there in the morning and, and get, you know, right involved

with it. I think if I had to maybe sit in

a chair here at the barn and not be quite as involved, I probably

wouldn't enjoy it as much. But I enjoy the training, I

enjoy the mornings and I've had an opportunity to take a day or

two where I've missed and boy, I don't do well at all on those

days. It seems like I'm lost.

So I I'm going to keep doing as long as I and not lose my mind

and which could happen in racing, but as long as I can

stay sharp and we got good horses yet.

It's amazing that I turned down. I wanted to keep everything in a

40 horse barn, you know, so I could see them all and handle

them all. I turned down and quite a few

horses actually 17 a couple months ago and thought I had to

handle on it. And then all of a sudden it just

they're coming out from everywhere and they're horses I

can't turn down. They're really nice horses.

And so I got a problem. Now I don't have enough stalls

so but I'm going to try to work it through.

I got good help. When did your family stop asking

about retirement? How long ago was that?

Was that a couple decades ago? How long ago was?

That they know better. You know, I don't even know how

to spell it. So what I'm hearing is we're

targeting preakness #8 this weekend and then we're still in

play for Preaknesses 1015 down the line.

I. Don't know about that.

I told my clientele when they bought these yearlings in

September last year at the yearling sale.

I said now you guys remember I'll be 92 when these are, you

know, running in these classics and you might want to think

about a younger guy or something.

They're splitting them off or whatever.

So they said don't worry about it.

They went in there and bought 18 Edge.

Must be nice, yeah? That's amazing.

Please wait Lucas, all the best in Baltimore.

Safe trips for all six of that are taking the trip and

hopefully tie that Bob Baffert guy for the most previous ever.

How about that? We have a friendly ride.

You know, we've been really good friends for a long time, back to

the Quarter Horse stage and everything.

The media, your colleagues when Bob first come around made it so

we were, you know, rivals and, you know, fierce rivals and

didn't get along and everything. And we, we kind of went along

with the thing and, and pumped it a little bit and then we'd go

to dinner that night. Everybody loves a good rivalry.

He's he's somebody said the other day and they said, what

about him? I said he's sneaky good, but

he's very sneaky good. And they said, well, aren't you

sneaky good? I said no, I'm damn good.

He's damn good. He's Wayne Lucas joined us here

on Blood Horse Monday. Coach we.

Appreciate it. Safe travels to Baltimore.

We'll see you there. Thanks guys.

Great to see you all with us all.

Right. Again, thanks to Wayne Lucas for

having us in the the office at his barn.

Bucket list stuff for sure for both of us.

And by the way, I think it's a thing that, you know, you should

do is sit down with a guy like Wayne Lucas.

It's something that that all of us who get to do this, you know,

we're lucky enough to, you know, I, I know you, you work really.

And I so hear this through this lens, Sean.

But the fact that we get to be out there for the mornings, for

the work and stuff and to be around these guys that you know,

you know, and women who throw their lives around this sport

getting to do this. But you know, in other sports,

in football, basketball, etcetera, we talk about coaching

trees. I don't know why we don't talk

about trainer trees in horse racing.

His is the tree. That's it.

Essentially modern horse racing came out of Wayne Lucas and I'm

so I would love I would love it some and I don't know the

format, but it's not blood work. How do we get Wayne Lucas to

tell us how he really feels about people?

Like how do like how does he really feel about something?

Because I would love to hear from him, right?

And because I think, you know, and, and other guys of his,

maybe not necessarily of his generation, because we're seeing

McCarthy run back. I don't think of him as being a

90 year old man or whatever. Else and he's the grand trainer

child of Lucas, going from Lucas to Fletcher to McCarthy.

That's exactly right. Talk about that tree.

We see that we see that trainer tree all over the place.

So legitimate. Thank you to him for for having

us in. We're we're up at Horseshoe

Indianapolis here. Race 2 about to go of all things

here, but but no, just your action to being in the office

with him. I I really do think his approach

is if I know how good my horses are, if they're fit, I'm going

to run them. Yeah, I think.

I think it's pretty straightforward for him.

It's pretty straightforward and American Promise, you know, I

don't think he really lost a whole lot of fitness from that

race in the Derby because he never really got a chance to.

Run. That might be right.

Lucas mentioned, you know how he had to stop and a couple of

times, especially at the beginning portion of the race,

he never got in a good position. He's just too big a horse to

stop and then try to get some momentum back going.

So I think he's definitely going to be pretty live here in the

brightness here. Lucas always seems to have him

ready in the brightness. That's for sure.

It really, really does seems like he runs his horses off a

four weeks rest, and actually the Virginia Derby to the Derby

itself is a stunning amount of time offering.

I know, that's why I think he's probably going to be a.

Little sharky because you might be sharky.

No, it should be really, really interesting.

I also appreciated the part about, you know, you asked about

Nick Juarez and keeping them out and him going with those things

and him talking about that coaching background and how that

just kind of never goes away. And as a guy who's coached you

sports and and whatever else, there is an aspect of it that is

so different than other things that you do in your life, right?

It's not like parenting. It's not like having colleagues

like this where, you know, I might learn something from you

and vice versa. It isn't like that at all.

Coaching is its own its own dynamic.

And so for him to talk about, you know, Jaime Torres last year

in the end with season great in the Preakness, Nick Juarez this

year in Virginia Derby, Kentucky Derby, obviously getting to run

in the Preakness as well. He doesn't think of these spots

as too big for these guys. He doesn't.

Yeah, it's you ride the horse. Well, you know the horse all you

need that's that'll take care of it just so.

Straightforward with with Lucas, it just isn't, you know what

he's thinking, you know, you know, if the horse is informed

or not because it runs. Yeah, if it's informed, it runs.

We have, you know what, it's interesting.

We're seeing success out of the guys, and I think it's one of

the good things that happened last year.

And if it takes one of these guys, yeah, no doubt about it.

He treats, you know, he treats the game the same way that Lucas

does. Where Peter Anna was great all

last year. She loses in a in a spot this

year in the launch, right in grade one, number one.

Yeah, she gets totally squeezed on the first turn.

I totally expect her back to be whatever version of herself at

Saratoga at some point. And so we're seeing some of

these guys that are willing to run their horses a little bit

more, run their horses into shape rather than training them

only into shape, have some high level success.

It gives me hope that maybe this freak the skipping thing isn't

for everyone. Exactly.

All right. Well, thanks again to Coach for

having us in the office. It really was one of those

bucket listings for both of us. So we really do appreciate all

the time he spent with us on top of that interview, by the way,

we hung out another solid half hour.

Yeah, he was very, very generous.

And so we do appreciate all the folks over at the Lucas barn.

They call it the Lucas. What do they call it?

The Lucas past? What do they call it over there

going up to trading that the Lucas gap.

The gap. Excuse me, Lucas Gap.

The Lucas Gap excuse. Me because Barn's been sitting

there for how long so? 91 years, so there you go.

Appreciate him very much. Hi, do we welcome in our

colleague Frank Angst from Blood Horse, bloodhorse.com, of

course, you can find him all over the website.

Of course, our leader, Fearless leader editorial down there at

Blood Horse. You've got Outlook, Frank, the

topic de la cement. The topic of the week, of course

is going to be Sovereignty's decision not to head to Pimlico.

I'm sure you have many opinions on this.

What can people look for? Yeah, it actually happens to be

the topic of my What's Going on here column for the upcoming

June issue that will be going out soon to subscribers.

You know, you know, it's just it's just tough.

And that this is the third Derby winner in recent years to to not

go on at a Preakness. So you certainly would like to

see the Derby win there winner in the Preakness most years.

I mean, we had a long stretch where they they win every year

and it's so you start to think about ways that you could

correct that. I, I think 3 year olds should be

racing at the classic distances. So I wouldn't want to mess with

the distance of the races, but I do think the spacing in between

races is fair game. I don't see a compelling reason

to be locked into what we are now.

The three two and you know, the Preakness is 2 weeks later and

the Belmont is 3 weeks after that.

So 3 classic grade one races in five weeks.

I think it just kind of evolved that way because when this all

started, horses raced more frequently and had quick turn

around times. But if you look at this year's

Derby field in terms of dirt races, none of them have raced

back in two weeks, even 3 weeks. I think it's just a Japan

runner. So it's, it's really not

something horses do right now. And in terms of determining

which horses should go on to, to the breeding shed, I, I don't

see a compelling reason where winning three and five weeks is

especially important. On that end.

It is quite an accomplishment obviously.

And the ones that if, if they did make changes in this regard,

I guess you know that those horses would be in their own

category on some level. But I I don't think the

competition would get any easier.

You're still, you're going to be facing the top horses and

potentially the Preakness field gets a little bit tougher if you

do it this way. Well, we saw a couple years ago

in 2020 when we had the pandemic that, you know, the races were

spaced out and we still had a different winner in all three

races. So sometimes it might just just

as difficult as it is to win three races in five weeks, maybe

sometimes it's more difficult to keep the horse sound for that

longer period of time. Now, Frank, I personally have

always been one who does not want to change the the spacing

between the races because I do think that increases the

challenge. But at the same time I look at

it from the marketing perspective of the industry.

The Triple Crown is our number one source to market.

The. Industry to the general public

and I'm I'm somebody who got hooked in the horse racing

through watching the Triple Crown each year and the partner

hooks you is following the Derby winner to see whether or not

they can end up winning the Triple Crown.

So it there is that marketing side of it where we have to make

sure we're putting our best foot forward.

Even though I don't want to see the Triple Crown, if this is

something that goes on for a couple more years, we keep

missing the Derby winner. We have to make sure we're pre

emptive and don't lose the general public's interest for

ruin the Triple Crown by refusing to change the timeline.

Would you say that the marketing Frank is that's one of the key

important? Pieces of this, Yeah.

I mean, I'm advocating for the tracks involved to sit down and,

you know, include some of the prominent horsemen and just look

at what, you know, what options are out there and what could

possibly be done in terms of spacing of races.

I don't think it lessens the accomplishment.

I mean, a few years ago we looked at like the first 40

years of graded stakes. There's only been six horses

ever to win three grade one races in a row at classic type

distances. Your three Triple Crown winners

of this. At that point it was your three

Triple Crown winners of the 70s and three older horses.

So it's still extremely rare. So then you look at that.

So I personally think it's still quite an accomplishment and

you're not really weakening that.

And then on the other end is the marketing and you know, we just

ran the Derby and that's just our number one race that people

from outside are racing pay attention to and it's a star

maker. I mean immediately, the day

after sovereignty is the best known horse among, you know, non

aficionados, you know. So you know, casual fans, they

all know sovereignty and it provides a natural hook for the

Preakness. Those people want to see that

horse come back in the Preakness.

So it's difficult when the Derby winner doesn't move forward.

The good news is we do have journalism coming back, the

Derby runner up and also he was the Derby favorite going in, so

he's well publicized horse as well.

So that's good to see. Well, I, I do think it's time to

just look at some tweaks and, you know, baseball, it's changed

quite a few rules that that have really paid dividends.

I think it's brought some base running and stealing bases back

to the game. Football's had changes over the

years. It's a vastly different sport

than when I played way back when.

Maybe that's not a good comparison because mine I played

so long ago it turned in my leather helmet at the at the end

of my. Career face masks, Who needs

them? Yeah, right.

Yeah, But, you know, I, you, you, you don't want to.

The Triple Crown has been so important to the game and has

meant so much to racing. I I wouldn't advocate for a

complete overhaul, but I do think there's some some room to

look at spacing between races and and it's really the

Preakness that would most need to be helped.

I mean it's just A2 week turn around is is pretty tough.

I appreciate you saying what you did about the distances too,

because I hear more often than people they're less offended by

a calendar change that they'd be more offended by a distance

change to each other. That was people's reaction to

the Belmont being in my own accord last year and this year.

Yeah, sure. It it is 20 you mentioned 2020

when they went the the mile and made one turn.

People freaked out like they were going to move to that

permanently. And and and so I do think

Frank's right in this aspect especially is the calendar

change will offend people less than if you say the Belmont's

going to be rough. I totally.

Yeah, I would think so. I mean the classic distances,

that's well, that's a crucial part of horse racing.

I don't think we want to abandon that.

And if you look at the, you know, the breeding success this,

the breeding of the horses that run well in his races, that

they're by classic sires and classic pedigree.

So I think that's still working and I think the horses are

capable of that. I think the biggest dinosaur is

the spacing between races. It's just, it's like you're

playing in Wimbledon and then you go to the US Open and now

you play with a wooden racket. It's, it's just sort of a dated

thing that's leftover and racing continues to go with it.

I, I don't think it really adds much to the accomplishment.

I, I think that I think the true accomplishment is competing

against other top three-year olds at classic distances, I

think and winning three times is asking a lot.

And, and that's what I meant by that stat earlier is I, I don't,

they know that the spacing plays a whole lot into it.

It's, it's just really tough to do.

If you picked any three classic type distances out, however you

want to space them, it would be hard for any horse to win those

three races. So we'll, we'll still have an

immense challenge, but I, I think we'll still have that

helps a little bit on the marketing side, maybe adds a

little more to the Preakness if this becomes a continued trend.

I I I'm kind of at that point. I get it if others are still

want to see a bit more. Even though, you know, I'm the

one who doesn't want to see the timing really change between the

races. It's like, I'll admit, if we're

going by the logic of it lessens the achievement, well then none

of the recent Triple Crown winners have come anywhere close

to Sir Barton, who won the Preakness four days after the

Kentucky Derby, then won another race, the Withers, in between

the Preakness of the belt. So the timings always change.

I always say when people were getting upset about the distance

last year, only three things, only things that matter to win

the Triple Crown is having the names Kentucky Derby, Preakness

and Belmont. You're waiting to call them now.

I don't want to see this happen, but it could be 300 yard sprints

for all they care. All three names.

Are on the on the paper it's Triple Crown winner in my

opinion, so I don't want. To set out what the rules are

beforehand and you compete according to the rules.

And yes, that's a Triple Crown. I I think the aspirin stuff

about Sarah talk about it bothers me as much as any debate

that that's caught around in circles because I think of the

horse side. What brakes would say?

You line up for three straight grade ones at classic distances

and you win those three You and you follow all the rules and do

all the things that you're a turbo.

Crown, that's just also Sir Burton's Belmont was not at a

mile and a half either. So there is precedent for that

as mile and relief. So I think when he ran it so.

I think since we looked, since we looked at it, I believe

Arrogant joined that club as well with the Traverse Breeders'

Cup Classic and then the Dubai World Cup.

So it's it's and those were spread out.

But I think anyone who follows the sport closely is well aware

of of what he accomplished with that win streak.

So. There you go, at least Frank.

Ganks, of course. Check them out in Blood Horse

magazine. We always encourage you to go

get the magazine, that physical copy sent to your place.

See what's happening here. Column about the space of Ultra

Triple Crown, not the distance change.

We're not doing that here at Blood Horse, but at

bloodhorse.com, of course, or everything Frank's working on as

well. Thanks, Frank.

Talk to you next week, buddy. Thanks guys.

Sounds good all. Right.

And of course, since we are here at Horseshoe Indianapolis, I

want to bring on our friend racing Rachel from up here at

just outside of Indianapolis. Get into lots of things with

her. I want to ask about the state

bread program. I want to ask about those

Wednesday's steaks, Caesar's Day on Wednesday, huge day of

racing, 4 steaks for them on the card on Wednesday.

But also, of course, July 5th at Indiana Derby, a day that you

and I always try. Yeah, that's one of the ones I

always try to make sure I have planned on my schedule.

Every year for sure. That's exactly right.

So Churchill closes, then they run the Indiana Derby is

essentially how the timing works out.

Easy drive from all over the Midwest.

No cost to get in and no cost to park.

They just get it right up here, man.

They really just want you to come here and check the place

out. And I think once you come here,

you'll make it a several times a year kind of stop.

But here's our interview with the racing.

Rachel, appreciate her stopping by here and where she would need

that. All right, Blood horse Monday,

Louis Rabo hanging out with you and racing.

Rachel, how about that? Rachel McLaughlin up here just

southeast of Indianapolis. Many people probably don't know

that you have the kinds of racing programs you have.

And by the way, hello. Hi, Thank you for having us.

We're very excited. We're up here a couple times

this year. Very.

Proud to sponsor your new show I I have.

Felt like I've. Been there since day one.

You have that's. Really, I feel like I've been a

supporter of your career, ground lover and wow did I put my stock

in a good gut. OK, Thank God.

All right. I I had no idea where that was

going. I really did.

I did not know where that would go.

You. Never know with.

Me with Rachel racy Rachel I have on Twitter, of course, so.

Yeah, great cards, huh? The program up here though, and

the fact that you guys are a weekday track and we kind of get

spoiled Monday through Thursday and all those things, What are

you running right now? So just so people know, starting

on May 12th, which days of the week are you guys up here that

sort? Of thing, I like how Eric does

it. We just do kind of like Tuesday,

Wednesday, Tuesday, Wednesday and April cuz it's about to be

Derby. You know, there's a lot of

people with eyes on, on Kentucky and then which is also nice

cause off of like a six month, you know, layoff, like my long

layoff. Working your a tightener, it's

the cold engine where you're getting the revving going again.

Correct. I just.

Get the roan. Back into racing and Eric's like

deal with it. No, he does a nice soft open,

which I like. And then starting it May 1st is

when we went to Monday through Thursday.

So that's this whole entire month and we don't race weekends

right now. And then it kind of changes once

we get in June, July, kids get out of school, that's when we

try to pick The Saturdays. And we've got a couple of night

racing this year, which people love.

So yeah, we've got a little bit for everyone, but it is mainly

Monday through Thursday. If people aren't familiar with

the track, so many steaks run on Wednesdays, which I really love,

starts this this Wednesday, 4 steaks alongside 2 open company.

And like many things here, the Indiana program itself, the

Indiana Bread program providing massive fields, what I could say

11 and 14 in those Indiana sire fields here in the Sagamar Sire,

on the Swift side, on the Philly side, the Indiana program

itself, Rachel, these are the kinds of things we talk about.

You're used to me on the happier.

No, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's handicapping sites. But just how, how successful

it's been and, and really, I mean, the, the, the support from

the owners and breeders, the, the support sort of just

generally around the state, the HBPA, other organizations.

It has been remarkable because this will be my 50th interview

this summer. How about that fit the

credential already? OK, But we've watched even just

in the last couple years, we went from these races being in

the 20s and purses. We're talking in the 40s now,

right? You can, you can breed here in

Indiana, run here in Indiana and you can be, you can be really

comfortable here, frankly. Yeah, I do a sponsorship.

This did a really big sponsorship this year with I

Toba Indiana Thoroughbred owner and breeders and it we focused

on I, I feel like people don't realize that our Indiana breads

are very affordable at the sale. And there are some that have

gone for very not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

We're talking 10s or below and they've won hundreds of

thousands of dollars with the program.

Two I've got when you walk downstairs be sure to look I've

got some signage for them so people can see like hey they

bought this horse for 8 grand and it's made $75,000 or you

know some of the bigger ones I have on the actual signage that

it's like $250,000 and I've noticed that like I think Dallas

Stuart has Indiana breads and like big name lame trainers are

starting to have Indiana breads and I'm like heck yeah so that

and the, and the big fields I mean I, it's sad sometimes when

you look up at the screen you see these short fields and then

I, I get my overnight and I'm like not.

Hearing Horseshoe. That's right.

Everyone else. But even I mean, just for this

four horse or for this four race sequence on Wednesday, we're

talking 11, we're talking 14. They could run 12 here.

And then later on it's 8 and it's and it's.

Eight in the big ones too, so. In the opening ones here, but

you're also offering turf steaks at a time when frankly,

Churchill is still kind of figuring out the turf course

seems to be back on better footing after Derby, those sorts

of things. I I don't sleep on those

Wednesday steaks. Are they going to be in great

races? It is hard to keep the turf.

And I think that I got to tell you, we added Michael Depew, and

he's like, I've learned so much about which, you know how, like,

people realize I'm a nerd. Yeah, I'm a nerd.

I like the random. I'm a weird weirdo.

Don't let this hair cool. Yeah, No, the roots in the in

the strength that you have to grow.

Like we got those blankets, OK, those blankets are impressive,

right? I learned that they're actually

only for visual. It's when you need a little

extra growth to start them. But then Michael is against

keeping them on for very long because the wind, the rain, the

weather strengthens, strengthens the roots.

So yeah, keeping them off, not the entire time, but a lot of

people, I think overuse them are in his opinion that he's taught

me, and that it weakens your grass Structurally, it looks

pretty, but it's not. The roots are what you want

because when you do get rain and you do have to run on it, you

know, you want something strong that's going to come back

quickly. And I, I think over the last few

years he's done a great job with it.

You're. Placed in the circuit here with

Horseshoe running essentially April to November, we see so

many of your jocks had to say places like Turfway, that kind

of thing. But you are open now for

training year round here, which is a remarkable change from when

I started coming here. It's a very, very quickly make

your track just a different place when people are here year

round, right when they don't have to pick up and leave and

they can choose to set down routes here are more people

doing that. Yes, yes, a lot of people have

bought farms, built farms, especially right down here.

But I think what the interesting part about that from my

perspective was my Indiana trainers would just get crushed

there in the spring because all all these guys were coming from

Kentucky and their horses have been training all winter running

and blah, blah, blah. And now I feel like it evens the

playing field a little bit because they're not kind of at A

at a disadvantage from having three months off where they

weren't. There was only a few trainers

that could, you know, it's, it's a big thing to have to drive all

the way to, excuse me, Kentucky or somewhere to train your

horses when you've got a track right in the background.

So yeah, they really, they're really smart to ask Eric to do

that. And he was, you know, that was

really nice of him, I think, to to agree to support the

horseman. He always does.

He's great at. That Let's do the fun stuff.

Joe Ramos gets his first mount in the Kentucky Derby.

Oh my little. Real chance to be the leading

rider here this year comes out of his accident.

Of course we've seen a new rider out of him.

You have to be really proud to see these local guys getting

pounds like. A Kentucky area.

Oh yeah oh, and Ethan W running one in the Kentucky area.

Like him forever. Yeah.

So really, really cool Rainbow's one leading jockey one year I

mean, he he's had great success here and then yeah, he kind of,

you know, went back home and had that accident and he just really

has come back and I think he's taking it really seriously.

I'm he he wants to move this track to Kentucky so I've heard,

but John are trying to talk him out of.

That he's going to take care too, to be fair.

He does. It's like stay for a little bit

longer. He's young.

Stay for a little bit longer, you know, And then though, they

get so excited. Offset of the early weekdays

against the Churchill. Right here and then when we

don't run, go. There, frankly, Ellis Park as

well during the summer, you can really balance those days if you

want to. I could see a guy like Joe doing

that for sure where I don't want to say like guaranteed wins here

at all. I don't that's not what I'm

saying, but more, hey, he's got all of the connections here.

It's very set up for him that way.

But yeah, go to go to Ellis. Let's see your program run it

for 100K this summer. Of course you should be there.

Of course they should be doing that, right?

Yeah, 100%. I think that's kind of obvious.

But you know, always you guys are so silly.

Indiana Derby July 5th. I fall well within the silly

camp for sure. What Indiana Derby July 5th?

I think people don't know easy drive from essentially anywhere

in the Midwest doesn't cost you a thing to get in, doesn't cost

you a thing to park. Yet last year I was here, the

line for programs was too long. So Eric just walked in, grabbed

all the programs, handed them out to people that said get out

of line. Yeah.

I, I, you get a free cigar, they roll one in front of you and

hand it to you. I The Indiana Derby is so good.

I know. It's so awesome.

I I Honestly, yeah. All of.

Those things and yeah, like, what else to say?

I mean, we have like a free Megabet drawing and you could

win $3000. The guy on Kentucky Derby day, I

was so bummed I wasn't here, won 15 grand.

And then, you know, so you get some place about on the Indiana

Derby. We have all the fun promotions,

the T-shirt tosses with the hat contest.

You could win a grand. It's just, yeah.

And it's all free. And like, you know, I'm not

trying to when you go to Churchill, it's a hassle.

I mean, it's obviously like a bucket list thing.

I'm not saying that you. Shouldn't you mean for a big big

rent? Yeah, for big yeah.

And you got to pay and you got to have your rent.

It's just very much. And you just worked it.

You just worked it. You just had a blast.

That's not the point. That's not the point coming up

here is. It's just so ease of

everything's easy and it's free parking and there's tons of free

seating. I just got a ton of family

leisure furniture down there and like deep seating.

It's not just, you know, a, a folding seat, like you can

really, really enjoy it here. And then the awning, you know,

if it rains, we can go under there.

But if you do want to see, we do have a sweet private event, you

know, ticketed event that's like 100.

You want a table up here you can do that.

You want to do the fancy thing, it's totally cool.

So we have we try to have a little bit of everything and

cater to everybody and then, well, there you go.

I'm excited. New post.

New post for that one on a Saturday as well.

So I'm literally going to go from setting off fireworks in my

cul-de-sac. And we race, I do want to

mention we do race on July 4th too, so well.

Friday race I'm. Not excited about that.

I'm excited about it as a work standpoint.

But for like Rachel Prep, it was, it's always so nice to have

like that Friday to like you're ready for Saturday.

Yeah, it's Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing boom.

But I can do. It I was talking to Chris Davis,

trainer Chris Davis, who I'm sure you know, won the Oaks here

last year. He talked about just being at a

track on its biggest day. There is something about being a

Brandy on a Derby day because I look, look, I'm, I'm the guy

that shows up. You're like, hey, Lou, I need

somebody for court or Saturdays and you know I'm going to be

here. But there's something so special

about it. Yeah, it is.

It's, it's a, it's I always tell people when I go and talk to the

news, like I talk to like 5 News stations or whatever about

Derby. I'm always like, it's if you

know the Kentucky Derby, which everybody knows the Kentucky

Derby. This is like our Kentucky Derby.

It's the Indiana Derby. And it is I I love the retail

crowd that comes that day. It's exciting for me because

that's so important. We were just talking about the

smaller fields and stuff like that's also a personal thing of

mine is to get new people into racing.

And I love all the stuff like Ray's putting out about that

influencer that had a piece in is it Sandman?

And so he's. Going to Preakness.

I know I saw that he's going to Preakness, but how exciting for

that kid to get. So he like, I think showed

everybody that's not just pomp and circumstance.

There's like a whole emotional. Thing.

Yeah, there's a sweat. That's right.

Like when you get bit by the horse bug, you realize that

they're not just something to bet on.

They're like actual creatures that you fall in love with or

you follow their career. You know, you can remember that

one horse I was just saying the other day on when I was on with

them, Gabby and all them, one of the horses that I had picked, I

had her picked on her maiden breaking wind and she won me

like 20 bucks. No, she went up.

She went up in 19 to one in one. Like you remember that,

especially when you see the horse run other places.

It's like a sentimental like you're always rooting for

because she made you look like a genius that day.

And I think that kid did a great job of showing it.

So yeah, definitely have those stories in Indiana.

I'm going to try to show them a little bit more.

But with the five million things I do, it's hard to get back

there. I need my own like FanDuel TV or

something crew to follow me around.

That would be awesome, Eric. Eric, like I've given you enough

lipstick allowance you're not allowed to have.

More blood Horse money. None of this, None of this.

Following her around. Just just hire me.

That's right. I get enough Louie's like enough

Rachel. A little.

More Rachel, A little bit more Louie.

We get it. That's exactly that.

All right, let's see some McLaughlin up here.

Horseshoe Indianapolis that Wednesday's slate of steaks

starts this week, including the Caesar steaks. 20th running

already of that. Oh my gosh, it's unbelievable to

think about the Horseshoe Indianapolis as well.

Both of those for three-year olds, 3 year olds on the male

side and on the turf female affiliate side, both of those on

the turf as well for $150,000. Should be really, really fun

fields off of that one. Rachel, we really appreciate

you. We'll be back up in just a

couple of weeks. You'll find me on the and a

Derby draw this year again and so be tuned in on that.

We draw again on Monday. Yep, awesome.

We'll draw Monday ahead of Saturday.

Sneaky good card every year too, because you do get because of

the timing and those things like Ivar was here a couple years ago

to run in one of the turf races. I mean it turns into this the.

Undercard. I swear to.

I swear the oaks the oaks every day comes up salty in the last

5-6 years. It needs to be moved up in my

opinion to grade 2 but Thundercard is legit good.

Dragoon Guard Last year you had the Grade 1 Santa Anita Derby

winner as part of the field. He won it.

I looked it up the other day. Three of the last five.

Years he targets it for sure. It's absolutely on his main

calendar that way. So July 5th for that one, of

course, will start on May 14 this Wednesday with those stakes

races up here at Horseshoe Indianapolis.

Rachel, thanks so much. Thanks, Louis.

There you go. We'll wrap up the show with

Preakness Talk and we do it next.

All right, and thanks for racing, Rachel.

Rachel McLaughlin for joining us here on set at Horseshoe

Indianapolis. We'll be up here two more times

this year with this show. Again, I mentioned earlier in

that interview, I'll be up here, I'll be your host on the Indiana

Derby draw ball thing. Sean, that's a fun day by the.

Way it is a very fun. Day.

Underrated day. Just like you, as I've been to 4

Indiana Derby so far, 2021 being my first one, and that's one of

the ones I always look forward to coming to every single year.

It's just such a fun atmosphere here.

But like you guys said, it's always great to see like, you

know, the smaller tracks on their big days.

I always think not. Even a.

Question. This is always one of those

races that I always have kind of at the start of the year when

I'm planning out which races I'm going to go to and you know, I

go to a lot, so you know you. Do make the cut, yeah.

You got to be pretty good to make the cut and the Indiana

Derby always makes the cut every year.

It's I think it's perfectly positioned on the calendar.

I think you get a solid group of three-year olds every single

year with them coming back in, some of the Derby horses coming

back in. Looks like we might have a

couple of those Derby horses pointing that way.

This. Year, I'm with you.

A Kentucky Derby horses, that is.

And now with the Mat Wind, where it is on the calendar, it

actually sets up you can run on the Mat Wind and then up here,

yeah, those are actually properly placed separated.

Part I was just talking with the connections of Colbath yesterday

and cold battles pointing towards the Matt Wynn We were

talking about one of those perfect schedules for a horse

like him is Matt Wynn Indiana Derby.

Maybe you go West Virginia Derby and then you take your shot

potentially in the trailers or you have the Pennsylvania Derby,

that great one. That's exactly.

And so I just think that's kind of there are a lot of these

horses who maybe aren't going to be hustling with the

sovereignties and the journalism.

This is kind of that perfect route for them to kind of pick

up some of this graded, graded stakes winning.

Oh yeah, Before you get to that three-year old year, that's the

underrated part of what happens up here.

Both of those races, the Oaks and Derby are graded.

Yeah. And so and and those are, you

can tell with Brad Cox, he uses it as an opportunity to get

graded stakes wins for his owners.

No question about it. And as targeted as Rachel

mentioned, I think he's won three of the last four or five,

something like that. But it's, it is very clearly not

just on your calendar, but it's become part of that Midwestern

Derby. But I I think even more of a

focus than say the Ohio Derby or something like that.

For whatever reason, this one seems to stand out as one that

people want to or, or it's at least they're willing to ship

for. How about that?

You know, we do see that, you know, we see the Santa Anita

Derby winner make the trip last year, etcetera.

It's it's turned into its own niche spot.

I also like that it's about a week after the big races at

Churchill's, right? So you get that juxtaposition of

the big older horse races especially.

And then you get up here and it's a nice, you know, Oaks and

Derby kind of day up here and it's a nice spot on the

calendar. For me, and it's such a fun day

to attend. If you haven't been to 1, you

live in the area, definitely make sure you come if you don't

live in the area, Charlie, can you get out here?

I think anywhere. From Chicago down to Louisville

over to Columbus over to Saint Louis, you can be here quick

enough. But it's the trip, no question.

Yeah, for sure. 4 stakes on the cart on Wednesday.

I am such a geek for the the stakes here on Wednesday.

I love, I love the setup of that for being here.

And by the way, they moved to $1.00 minimums on the Pick 4

here. Wow.

So no messing around. That is low sales style.

And by the way, with big fields, that makes it very, very

difficult to handicap around here.

They paid. And if you.

Would No, that's exactly right. Those minimums and that take out

is so low around here as well that it just really sets up in a

serious way. By the way, they also have the

old school printables. We look at that.

I don't know. That's a look at that.

You get a little, you get a little that that, that smudge on

your fingers. Are you old enough to even know

what that is from a newspaper? Showing yeah I, I that's how I

first when I was first getting into horse racing when I was 5

or 6 so I'd flip through the newspaper every day to see if

there was going to be any racing on national TV because it would

have the little national TV sports schedule.

And so I would check to see that's how I discovered the

Travers existed was finding was finding it in there.

And so yeah. And you?

Know what was the name of the newspaper where you grew up?

Mine was just the press. And The Morning Call.

Morning. Call.

Yeah, that's pretty good. I like that pretty good and.

They all. Hyper dated names.

At least you got morning. Every year they had the Triple

Crown races were always the front page of the paper, so I'd

always cut those out and I'd save them.

I still have. If you go and go through my

stuff that's at my mom's place right now, you'll probably find

all these newspaper clippings from Smarty Jones.

Your mom? Did you make your mom take your

clippings from? She's got all of it, one state

to another. I'm going to pick it up this

year and probably bring it out here.

To Kentucky, you'd be nice to your mom, you understand?

We just had mother's. Day.

Yeah, I've got all the old newspaper clippings from a lot

of those older, well, old derbies for me.

Now that's really old derbies, but I guess they're technically

my old derbies. No, that's right.

They are your old derbies. I'm looking at the the past

performances for today up here and Race 6 is one of those races

I just talked about with Rachel, which is maiden special for

Indiana Brats. Yeah, 38,000 on the line and the

average horse breeding price I would guess was $2500.

And that's that's how you build a.

Program that's that's the best part of the estate print

programs the ones that are strong like Indiana's is you can

you know everybody always thinks about you got to spend a lot of

money and then you got to win these big races but if you're

really involved in one of the programs like this where you can

breed for a small amount and have purses like that and have

the kind of stakes program that you guys were just talking about

yeah that's a big deal for a lot of people and it's a good way to

get involved in the industry at a lower price point that's.

Exactly right. Yeah.

And it's, it's just cheaper to run here.

It just is The other part too, that's really interesting is the

sires are generally the children of big sires, right?

And they end up in in in state program.

So you see, for example, like a forever Dioro is the son of

Medelli Doro, right, that kind of thing.

Or you see a a Skylord who's the son of Sky Mesa, this kind of

stuff, right where you see that lineage isn't so far off.

So I imagine there's also probably the hope for owners

here that you're going to get someone who's a little more like

grandma or grandpa, excuse me than than like that, right,

Something like that grand sire rather than sire.

So you do wonder once in a while, you know, a oh, here we

go. So $1500 training or a breeding

job for a out of a buy a what? Now that's a distorted humor

line. Yeah, right.

What if, what if you actually get that skip and generation

kind of thing with the distorted humor I got to imagine people

are really hoping for? Those are you calling that horse

to win right now? What now, Daddy?

Yeah, yeah, I get Louis Contreras and Randy clap.

Yeah, let's do that. Yeah.

How about? That well, if you're if you're

watching this so you're probably watching it after that race

started to see whether or not Louis.

Is the 91 and race 6. Go see whether or not Louis is

correct. Also didn't hear that at all

yesterday. It was Mother's Day, so how

about that? Yeah, move me out of the way.

Babe, get the blood horse bump going.

Let's see if it works. It works here at Indianapolis,

too. Get it done, Randy Clap.

You understand me? But yeah, no, it's a, it's a fun

program up here, man. And you get to know the horses

too. And this is the thing, and I

know you know this, if you follow a circuit, you get to

know the horses on the circuit. I know so many of us during

COVID discovered things like Assiniboia Downs at night.

And you got to know those horses cuz they run every 1314, you

know, 17 days or whatever. And at Horseshoe, you definitely

get to know trainers, you know, breeding lines, those kinds of

things. The Justice Farm up here stands

out. Marvin Johnson's a big breeder

up here. It's, it's an interesting

dynamic of people and, and a fun circuit as well.

And we're in the clubhouse level up here.

This is as easy and as good. They, they got a, they got a

chef everyday that they run. I mean, this is, this is nice up

here. I think people don't know how

nice it is for sure. Yeah, this is a good trainer.

All right, well we wrap it up with a little bit of Preakness

talk. You and I are both headed to

Baltimore this week. Shout out to Mike Ponds in the

Country Life Farm folks are having this out on Thursday.

What are you most looking forward to this coming weekend?

I'm going to, I'll go first with this one.

I'm going to be weirdly nostalgic.

The first non Derby Triple Crown race I ever got to go to was

2015 Preakness. That's the first one I went.

To it was American Pharaoh. That's the first Triple Crown

race I went to in general. OK.

Yeah, OK. And obviously the rain that day

and just the fact that he carries 20 extra pounds and goes

ahead and wins the Belmont. Anyway, all the stories and all

the things. I'm going to be very nostalgic

and and I'm going to be sad that that version of Pimlico is going

away. And I want people to hear me out

because it is so easy, I think, to poo poo and to put down older

places like Old Hilltop that haven't been renovated in a long

time, that haven't been taken care of in a way that we're

oiled within Kentucky. Or places like Horseshoe or

other spots where Churchill dumps money in.

And people criticize them for spending money on their

facility. But then they criticize Pimlico

for not spending money on their facility.

And I don't know if there's a balance or people just like to

criticize, but I always open my show on Friday at 10:00 from

Pimlico by saying from deep within the bowels of unrenovated

Pimlico Racecourse. And I meet it in the most

farming way that I can as a guy who grew up in the upper

Midwest, who went to football games in old Big 10 stadiums,

who went to Tiger Stadium in Detroit as a kid.

That's what Pimlico is. And it's about to go away.

And by the way, it needs to, I want to be really clear, I, I

know that it needs to go away, that we need a change in

Maryland, that there needs to be a better facility in Baltimore.

I know that it doesn't make it any less nostalgic that I got to

watch 2 Triple Crown winners and races there, that I've had so

much damn fun at that place over and over with the nicest people.

Every person you meet on the first floor of that place has

been to the Preakness for 25 years in a row.

Plus, it's unbelievable how loyal people are to that race.

Sean. That's what I will be thinking

about Friday and Saturday that we're at the track.

Black Eyed Susan Day, Of course, Preakness Day on Saturday is

just how much I, I legitimately love that place because for a

guy from the, the Rust Belt, a guy from the upper Midwest, a

guy who grew up in failing stadiums and in things that were

falling apart before they were, by the way, then replaced and

renovated and made better America Park's better than Tiger

Stadium. It's OK Ford feels better than

where the Lions were playing before.

I, you know, Spartan Stadium is nice now where I went to school.

There's good state, right? Those things can get better.

So while I'm going to be hopeful for, for Baltimore in the, in

the future of racing in Maryland, part of me is going to

be sad that, that, that that version of old Hilltop's going

away. Yes.

I know it's going to. I'm going to definitely take my

stroll around one of these days, probably once when nobody's

there and then once on Preakness Day where everybody's there.

Is it frowned? Upon if I steal some of the

awesome deco art on the wall as I imagine.

Well, if you get away with it, let me.

Know I will I. Will I'm gonna take some too,

but but yeah, it's one of those places that we always, my dad

and I went to the Preakness many times.

This is going to be my 8th Preakness this year.

And my dad up until last year when I worked it and he had

scheduling conflict. That was the first time we

didn't go together. But we have a lot of great

memories at that place, even though we always talk about how

it's falling apart and we always are like, well, this place is

kind of a dump, but it's a lovable.

Dump. And it's one of those places.

It's hard on Yeah, it's. One of those places you just

have a good time every single time that you go.

There's so many funny stories that my dad and I have from the

different preaknesses that we've been to.

And so I'm gonna do exactly what you what you just said I'm gonna

go there. I'm one of the mornings I'm

after training, I'm planning to just kind of walk through and

just take a look at everything again and try to do the same

thing when all the people are in it and try to take in Preakness

Day and really enjoy it. This year, because old Hilltop

will be going away, Jenny Reese and I are trying to coin the

term new Hilltop for the for the new facility.

But. I don't hate that at all.

That's. Pretty good, man.

I know that's shout out to Jenny Reese we were coming up with.

That but shout out to the notes. Team Preakness, notes Team

Hurry, Tim Wilkin. Those are good people.

That's about as good as it gets in trouble.

Crap. Yes, it is.

But it's gonna be, it's gonna be a sentimental weekend for sure,

and I'm gonna be sad leaving there something.

We'll be there. We will react to everything.

On Monday, field shaped up. We talked about that in the

first segment and able to get excited about the field.

I think one of the themes as well for me this weekend will be

I won't be totally over sovereignty but not being there,

but I'm still very excited for the Preakness race.

We ended up getting pretty solid field going into this race.

I think it's going to be competitive race and I'm glad to

see journalism is here. We're have the runner up in the

Kentucky Derby. I think this is going to be a.

Pretty fun weekend with you. All right, He's Sean.

I'm Louis. We're off the Baltimore, off the

Charm City. But first, of course, want to

thank our friends up here at Horseshoe Indianapolis Monday

through Thursday. They are racing and you can

always check them out at HSI Racing on Twitter as well.

Great stakes action on Wednesdays, July 5th.

Make sure you get in as well on the Indiana Derby.

We'd love to see you up here if you do happen to make it up.

I'll be set up outside under the awning doing radio beforehand.

We answer questions from anybody that might come up and say hi as

well. So really, really looking

forward to meeting many of you on Indiana Derby Day.

And as we encourage you every single episode on the show, go

check out Blood Horse Magazine. If you're watching on YouTube or

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We've got that QR code for you. Go get signed up, sent to your

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happening in Thoroughbird racing around our great country here

with bloodhorseandbloodhorse.com.

Sean, time to get out of here. Yeah.

All right, buddy. Appreciate everybody here at

Horseshoe Indianapolis. We'll be back with a Preakness

recap next Monday here on Blood HORSE Monday.

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