BloodHorse Monday Episode 2 | 2/10/25

Day after the Super Bowl edition upload horse Monday.

His name is Sean I'm Louis hanging out with you in our

studio No no wind gusts today Sean.

I know you're incredibly disappointed by that.

Not as disappointed as a Giants fan though that the Eagles went

in and didn't just win the Super Bowl.

So I mean, they this wasn't just a ho hum 2824 going to go rough.

No, they were up 34 down to get to one point there.

That was hard to win. That was probably the worst

football game I've ever watched in my life.

The only good thing about it was that Saquon didn't really run

away with anything yesterday. So as a Giants fan, that kind of

made me happy. At the same time, I'm also happy

that he did get a Super Bowl ring.

But yeah, that was that was not a good.

Oh, there you go. I was smiling because on

Saturday and I was, I was thinking about this, you know,

getting ready for this show. And of course, we'll show the

replays as we get into it again. Louisville, Shawn, Kyle, take it

out with you. Blood Horse Monday.

We'll talk today to E trader Ian Wilkes and the connections of

Burnham Square. And of course our guy Frank Eggs

from bloodhorse.com will join us as well to get you updated on

what's going on around the website, but of course going on

in horse racing this weekend as well.

Coming up, there's a star weekend already, 50 point races

and I mentioned all those 3 year old things.

We'll talk Suncoast, we'll talk Sam F Davis.

It was so nice on Saturday to just sit down and enjoy a mile

and 1/4 turf race at San Anita Park with a bunch of older

horses whose resumes I understood.

There goes Harvard wins the race.

You know why? Because he's an older horse that

knows how to raid on the front end, these kinds of things.

It was just nice to watch that kind of race, Shannon.

Get back into. Forms.

It's been a while since he won the race.

It was nice to see him. I know they were talking a

little bit before the race when I was watching about how he has

been kind of off for him recently, but he still ran a

pretty good race in the Breeders Cup.

We'll have to see him bounce back like that.

Yeah, and, and frankly, with all of the awful events of the fires

around Los Angeles, it's nice to just see racing with those

mountains in the background, clear skies, all of the things

so great, great, great, great stuff out there.

I've got somebody, you know, it's interesting, Sean, when you

get, you know, you're a couple years into this, I'm a couple

years into being around horse racing.

And you realize, you know, that beautiful thing about our sport,

the regionality of it, the people around the country.

And then, you know, when things like this happened or, or like a

Super Bowl And you know, Kevin Kerstein from the Churchill

Downs office, we saw last week, yeah, he's pretty happy.

He's not upset today. That's right.

He's pretty OK with all the 10th breaks.

But you get to know people from frankly, all over the world.

One of the best things about oysters.

So when the things happen, you know, the fires happened in Lai

was always thinking about our friends out there.

But we do go to the Sam F Davis here, Johnny Hancock gets the

win. We get the kind of finish.

Reminded me a little bit of the Remsen last year between Dornec

and Sierra Leone with frankly in this case John Hancock acting

just like Dornick re rallying when he got challenged in the

stretch. And then of course a great run

as well in 2nd place from from Owen Almighty.

That's right, we talked about Owen Almighty quite a bit on

this show last week. Thanks for joining us live on

YouTube. By the way, on the blood horse

page uploaded after the show for all of those.

But let's kick it to Jason beam on the call of the Sam F dates

Camp Hale 4th still about two and a half three off the lead

right outside of that one. Doctor Ruben am starting to

launch a bit from the back is very bold poster starting to get

underway was last has gone by a few rivals as Treaty of Rome

drops out of it posters on the move but still has six or seven

to find a round to the top of the stretch.

John Hancock and Owen Almighty they've been going at it since

they sprung the latch. They've now put three on the

field. Camp Hale.

Moves up to 3rd. Going to swing to the outside.

Poster continues his move right down the center of the track.

John Hancock. Owen Almighty shoulder to

shoulder at the 8th pole. John Hancock on the inside.

Owen Almighty on the outside. Camp Hale still 3 legs back.

Poster continues to make up ground.

Owen Almighty goes narrowly to the front.

John Hancock battles right back. John Hancock.

Owen Almighty. John Hancock.

John Hancock signs his name to a Sam F Davis win.

Owen Almighty was valued but Camp Hale 4th.

Still about two and a half three off.

To the besides the name to the Sam F Davis Win Classic.

Race call. It's as good as it gets, right?

It's a good job by Jason Beam on the call there.

I saw a post for Frank Bear body the other day.

Just saying that's the good stuff.

Good job there. So really, really do appreciate

it. By the way, you are welcome to

join us on YouTube. If you wanted to comment on the

show. We'd be happy to hear from you.

Hi, Judith. Thanks so much for hanging out

with us here on Blood Horse Monday.

Maxim Loah, a little Frenchness. Let's go.

We mentioned people all around the world catching people all

around the world here on Blood Horse Monday.

Flavia Brad with a ride there. Hey, we see this kind of rally

in the stretch. You see horses that even in

their own, you know, just their second start ever want to get

there, want to get these things done?

What really stood out to you here about John Hancock?

We'll get to another horse that I think had up and under the

radar. Great race here.

I really. Liked the fact that he got

headed in mid stretch and then battled back.

You mentioned the Door Knock Sierra Leone earlier was that

exact same kind of thing. When you see a horse down on the

inside, get brave and fight back.

Obviously you know Door Knock went on to do great things when

the Belmont Stakes in the Haskell the following year.

So I like to see that kind of resilience from a three-year

old, especially as we're moving towards the Triple Crown.

Yeah, I'm with you. I thought Owen Almighty, frankly

did very little wrong here. I don't want to.

Yeah. I don't want to scream like

distance limitations or anything like that.

I didn't see anything like that. I agree with you about John

Hancock. How about poster flying on the

outside after what was not a great start, you know, out of

the gate. I do wonder too, with poster,

you know, what we saw in the Remsen in those things, if he's

going to have to be a little closer to the pace to be more

effective. As you know, we get into these

longer races, they're going to play to his style.

Obviously, we saw with Sierra Leone last year, these deep

closers can still win this race, right?

And, you know, for years we talked about, especially in the

points era of the Kentucky Derby, trail horses needed to

really be in that pressing grouper in the front to win.

We obviously got that was all shattered by Red Strike.

Many things shattered by Red Strike.

And he is. He is that.

Yeah. But we're seeing more and more

of those horses, you know, missing.

Dan wasn't in that front group. He was on the final turn because

Brian Hernandez junior made a Calvin Burrell move, those kinds

of things. But I think for poster, he's

going to have to be in that kind of position to be effective.

More like Mystic Dan was in the Derby in that 4th, 5th kind of

position in the normal 10 horse field.

I don't think this far back is fair to the horse, frankly.

And I think the main thing with him is, you know, the race that

really did not kind of set up for him.

The track was playing pretty speed favoring throughout the

day. There were a lot of horses that

were laying up close. So I think he was kind of up

against it. I was just happy to see him come

back. I know he hadn't had a lot of

training kind of leading up to it that got impacted or there's

a lot of training that got impacted leading up to it

because some of the weather. But I think that, but seeing

that strong of a close kind of against the bias, I think is

definitely a good sign moving forward in the Derby.

You know you don't want to be all the way back unless you're a

rich strike, unless you remind that bird those type of horses.

But you know. Crazy things happen in the

Derby, the pace a lot of times gets a lot quicker than you

expect it going in. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be too

upset with him being that far back in the Derby.

Do you want to see him probably the next starter to feel a

little bit more closeness to the pace, Yeah.

I think even in like a Tampa Bay Derby, you're you're locking up

third position. If you run like that, you just

start because there's going to be competitors in that field

that are simply going to finish faster than you.

Not the fastest race ever coming home, but last time I checked

that race was run on February 8th.

So we still got time to kind of figure the three-year olds are

still developed. No, that's exactly right.

And frankly, we may not even have seen some of those.

We've seen buyer figures from other 3 year olds that are

better than what we've seen in some of the stakes races even.

And so a nice reminder this time of year, don't fall in love too

much with anybody. You know, we got a long way to

go and. One of the really cool things

that I enjoyed about this race was the part coming down the

stretch, John Hancock versus Owen Almighty.

That was the champion jockey battle.

Yes, it was Lady and Pratt versus Irad Ortiz Junior.

How fun was that to see them kind of throw it down for that

entire stretch around it? Kind of an exclamation point on

the old Eclipse Award there for Mr. Pratt.

How about that right there? I will say it was an awesome

stretch tool as soon as I got done.

A guy I've done a lot of shows with, Barry Spears, does some

paddock work on Tampa Bay Derby weekend.

I texted him right away, something I can't say on there

and then immediately what a race it just we I think we were

waiting for one of those in this 3 year old season that was just

Big Bang like that. And we got that stretch run from

those two and two really good horses, a promising maiden

winner that was stretching out. And Owen Almighty, who's

definitely well proven, You know, he got disqualified from

his win the time before, but he's finished first in two

stakes races, was second in a graded race.

He's a legit horse and see what both of them have going forward.

On his way for sure. 20 points of course, in that one goes to

the winner in John Hancock. You know when I knew John

Hancock was going to win when friend of of shows as well,

Matthew DeSantis tweeted, oh, hey, you know, he didn't

actually sign the Declaration of Independence.

It's like, bro, you just guaranteed a win on Saturday.

That's how this works in horse racing.

You can't can't be smart horses then expect them not to be

great. But as you mentioned, starter in

a in a main special at Tampa, an unusual route for Brad Cox

training. Hopefully he showed everything

on Saturday. So hopefully moving forward just

continues to be on the improvement.

He's having a larger presence in Florida this year than he's ever

had before and it's nice to see him kind of having the success

here. This is really going to kind of

help him spread his horses out. You know, every year he's going

to have quite a few good 3 year olds.

I think having the success at Tampa, having horses that have

been running at Gulfstream, that's going to you're going to

see him more spread out with his division over the next few

years. We've definitely seen him on

Long Island and in Arkansas, fairgrounds, of course, in

different places, Kentucky. A turf way a little.

Bit yeah, just a little bit right.

There you go. Lacaro won the the Suncoast a

couple of races before that punctuates a third win in four

tries over her last four races in the Pocahontas.

Before that, of course, in a maiden win, this one in a list

of stakes in the Suncoast after a 5th place finish in the

Breeders Cup Juvenile Phillies. This was one of those questions.

And when we talked to Frank Inks last week, he brought up the

fact that especially on the cold side for the Derby, you want to

be good that first race, right? And so we saw the bounce back

last weekend as well. But this weekend we got to see

Lakara in the Suncoast. We go to Jason Beam for the call

to a length. Juta continues in second.

Italian soiree toward the inside, starting a move from the

back, Dancing Magic trying to run on Della Reigns looking

between horses and Queen of the deck.

Her laugh is starting to commence.

A bid has drawn to within 7. Looks like an estate toward the

inside. As Lacar brings him to the top

of the stretch, it's Lacar suddenly 3 in front of Judah,

Italian soiree, her laugh. Looking for a seam in between

runners is going to try to come out to about the three path.

Meanwhile, Lacar has fled the scene.

Lacar is in front by 5, her laugh running up into second

along with Delaraine down the outside Italian soiree.

But a final 16th to go. Dylan Davis and Lacar dominate

the Suncoast. It's Lacar to win it here by

about 7. Her laugh.

Did get up for second Delaree in 3rd, Italian soiree 4th and

dance her laugh. Gets up for second for Whit

Beckman there. But of course Lacaro wins out of

the Cassie barn. I thought a very impressive

first run back. Did not look any worse for the

time off frankly. Looked very fresh, really ready

to go. Makes me wonder, do you run it

right away at A50 point prep, give her time off before the

Oaks, run her fresh again in the Oaks?

Or do you just let the normal form cycle happen here?

Will be interesting to watch her.

But this style always wins if you can get gates Wire always

wins if you can do it. So this one was really, really,

I thought, I do think the run under Irad Ortiz behind her was

very good as well. Going to have to make that move

a lot earlier, not have to split four horses in this case, that

sort of thing. But Lacaro, great bounce back.

Yeah. That was a great bounce back off

of her finishing the Breeders Cup Juvenile Phillies, which

honestly she didn't run that bad in that race, but she looked

like a completely different horse from where she was as a 2

year old last year. I thought she was much stronger

in this performance seeing her get out to the lead.

I mean, we did just mention that the track was playing speed

favoring, but I don't think it would have mattered in this

case. The way that she ran, she looked

strong. The only thing that, you know,

you can kind of look at that and take away is the fact that her

laugh just completely botched the break.

And so when she botched the break there, that kind of

changed the complexion of the race.

She had been on the lead back in the Untappable Stakes and but

the good thing for her is she's now one of the lead and she ran

an exceptionally good race kind of against the bias coming from

dead last. I mean, she wasn't even on the

screen for the 1st 3/4 of the race there.

So it's nice to see her put in that run.

I think with this, it's going to have two really legitimate shots

going forward. Yeah, it's interesting too.

Out of the Cassie barn, it's not one that I it's not a name that

when I think folks, when I think Preakness, when I think Belmont

or or Acorn, something like that, I don't immediately go to

the Cassie's of the world. You think about his Phillies

going towards like the Kings plate, something like that.

Something like this, right, Still super or or you know,

something in Gulfstream, you know, in the Championship be

it's something like that, but usually on the turf side of

things or whatever it might be. So it's fun to see more and more

of these things. We're seeing the Owen Hardy's,

we're seeing these other names that maybe we don't always get

to see on the Derby trail. Awesome to see them pop up this

time of year. Speaking of people on the Derby

trailer, you got to do a cool interview yesterday.

And these are the kinds of things that we want to bring to

you here on BLOOD HORSE Monday. Again, Sean, Hallelujah, bro,

hanging out with you. Thanks for making this part on

your horse Racing Monday on the YouTube channel.

Of course, you can catch us live every Monday, by the way, at

2:00. You want to interact with the

show? You're welcome to do that.

Of course, Catch us anywhere you want.

But there is a version on YouTube if you want to see what

I look like. Or, Sean, that's actually

considerably better. You got to do one of these

little interviews yesterday with not only a trainer but an owner

on The Dirty trailer. Yeah.

Yesterday, today we got to talk to the connections of Burns

Square, when are the Holy Bowl Stakes?

Just last week got to talk to trainer Ian Wilkes, Clay

Whitham, who manages the racing and the breeding alongside his

mother Janice. So both of them were very, very

nice enough to sit down with us kind of talk about their horse.

And one of the things that we kind of focus on was this

horse's development. It's not a horse that they

really kind of had a lot of high expectations for, right, right

out of the gate. In fact, they actually put him

in a maiden claiming race for his debut, $150,000.

So, you know, you don't usually see horse get claimed for that

much, but that was kind of where their head was.

Thank God they didn't get claimed because now they got a

horse on the Derby trail. It's pretty cool to talk to

them. So here's Sean's interview with

Ian Wilkes and welcome. Into the show today, Ian Wilkes

and Clay Widdam of the Burnham Square team, winner of the Holy

Bowl Stakes last weekend. Ian is the trainer.

Clay, you manage the racing and breeding operations alongside

your mother Janice. First of all, congratulations to

you guys on having such a nice horse and getting on the

Kentucky Derby trail here with Burnham Square.

Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you. Awesome.

Well, looking back at that performance, you've kind of had

a week to let it settle in. One of the things that we talked

about on the podcast last week, me and Louis, was just how

professional of a win that this was.

He kind of made multiple moves throughout the race.

He took the lead at the top of the stretch and was still moving

away strong. Ian, were you expecting that

kind of performance from him in just his fourth start?

Off his maiden win, yeah, I would say, you know, you always

when you get the water gets deeper, you you want to see

improvement. And he had trained well and with

the blinkers added to him in that maiden when he was much

more tractable, much more professional.

So yeah, I was expecting a good performance from him.

And I know Edgar Zaya is the jockey.

He mentioned after the race that he still, he felt like the horse

still was a little nervous. He kind of before the race and

getting into the gate, he still felt some of those nerves there.

I know he broke a little bit slowly and was back further than

he had been his maiden win. What does it say about the horse

that he was able to still win anyway?

And then when he does kind of finally start to get some

confidence in going into the gate and getting himself

started, how good can this horse be?

That's what we got to find out. You know, he he got a little hot

before the race, which I think that was his biggest downfall

about the race was he got a little bit hot.

I've got to try and eliminate that and but we don't know how

good he can get yet. You know, this horse, he could,

the distance is not an issue for him.

That's that's it. You know, we got to find out how

good, how much can he handle the, the top dogs.

You know, that's what we got to see.

That's what we got to find out. You mentioned, you know, kind of

trying to fix that problem of him getting hot.

As a trainer, how do you do that over the next couple weeks

before his next start? What are you trying to do with

him in the morning to kind of fix that problem?

I think it's more in an afternoon situation.

I'm I'm happy the way the horses come out of the race.

He's actually, I feel he's come out of a better than he went

into that race. So I think it's a case I need to

go and school him in the paddock, you know, take him down

and school him at Gulfstream without taking, taking him down

there and running. Just give him a, a practice run.

I think that will help him. Awesome.

Well, just tell me a little bit about his development.

You know, he's a gelding. This was his fourth career

start. I know he lost his first two

races, but he was pretty close there.

You guys also debuted him at Keeneland for $150,000 tags.

Just kind of what were your early thoughts on him and how

has he developed as he's come along here?

I know you said the blinkers really kind of have helped him

out over the last two starts, but just kind of walk me through

that development. Yeah.

You know, leading up to his first race, you know, he trained

OK, not not spectacular, but trained OK.

And that's when Clay and I talked about putting him in for

150. It's a, it's a big tag.

You know, that's a big hefty price and, and not a lot.

Even though the Linda had produced runners, she hadn't

produced, they were claiming level horses.

So and if you look at this horse, he's he's a plain Jane.

You know, he's there's nothing to see about him.

You know that the wow, you know, he's a good looking horse, you

know. So we took the shot.

He actually surprised us in the race.

He ran really good and and offer that race.

He started working a little better and that's when we we

stepped him up to a maiden special weight.

Clay, I know a hundred. Yeah, we've.

All interjected since I've been known to just cut in on people.

But you know, after that, after that first race, we talked about

you know what what we're going to running back in and it was it

was pretty immediate. Ian said, well, we better not do

that again. So we we knew that we weren't

going to run back for that 150 tag after, after what what he

showed us in that race. I know 150 is no small amount of

money. You don't often see too many

horses claim there. But Clay, from your perspective

as an owner to debut a horse for A tag, what kind of goes into

that decision? You know, especially a young

horse like this. Well, it, it is a, a decision

you really have to think about, But in general, we don't try to

sneak horses through maiden claiming conditions with the

idea that we'd really be, you know, we usually you're not

looking to get them claimed, But we wouldn't put him in there if

we didn't think, you know, we wouldn't want to be second

guessing ourselves if, if the horse did get claimed, you know,

like Ian said, the the mayor hadn't produced that much up to

that point. And you know, you know, he's not

a big standout physical type of horse.

So, you know, we we didn't think that it was likely that, that he

would get claimed, but we don't start very many horses in in

that condition. But again, the 1:50 that that is

a that is a big, that is a big number.

And I don't think you've during, I don't.

I didn't watch all the statistics, but for the whole

meet at Keeneland, I don't know whether any horses got claimed

for that tag. What is that moment like when

you see him run really well and you're waiting to find out

whether or not he's been claimed?

Was it a sigh of relief when you saw that he wasn't?

Yes, yeah. And I didn't really, I didn't

expect him to get cleaned. Yeah, and when he came back and

he ran at Churchill, he stretched out to two turns

there. I know he's now won twice at a

mile and a 16 foot the blinkers. What was your thoughts on his

third place finish there? Second time out, Ian.

Well, I give him the benefit of the doubt because he made a lot

of mistakes in that first race. Even then he runs second.

I I actually thought he would win as well as he trained from

that first race to the second race.

And Francisco Arrieta rode him and I feel bad for him because

he he's at the half mile and he couldn't get the horse going.

He wouldn't go. And then all of a sudden he,

because he's run away from horses, not running into the

dirt, you know, just doing everything wrong, then finally

come running down the lane drop beat 3/4, but within 50 yards

after the wire, he's 4IN front. So, you know, I just knew what I

had to do. I had to put a set of blinkers

on him, you know, to to try and help him.

And those blinkers really worked out.

You know he won by 9. His next time he comes back and

wins the Holy Bowl. I know you said he's been doing

pretty well and you're pretty pleased with how he's doing

coming out of the race, but what's next for him?

Are you pointing towards the Fountain of youth?

What would be your game plan to get there?

Yeah, yeah. That's the that's the plan.

Talk to Clay Misses Witham and we'll, we'll go forward with the

Fountain of Youth as long as he's doing good and he seems

he's doing very well right now. So we'll just keep going forward

and point for the fountain of youth, which is 4 weeks between

the the collie bull. So that's, that's a, it's a

logical spot. It's a good spot.

It's a nice timing. And would you be expecting him

to get back on the work tab this weekend or another week yet or?

Probably not till next week. You know, he, he just ran a week

ago. So it, it'll be next week before

I do something. I don't need to do a lot with

him because I was a little hard on him coming into that last

race because I was coming off a main and going to a stake.

So I just wanted him a little bit tighter.

I wanted to keep moving forward. Now I want to watch him and let

him float along and come into the next race and judge each

work on how he's doing coming into it.

But I don't think I have to be because he's not a big robust

horse. He's, he's a very clean winded

horse. He's he's not, he's not a big

heavy horse either. So I, it's not like I have to

drill him to be where I want to be.

I just got to get the right kind of works.

And we mentioned the mother a little bit earlier.

That's Linda, the dam. She's a home bred for you guys,

Clay and her mother was a home bred as well.

Just tell me a little bit about this family line and how it's

developed through your family over the years.

Yes, you know, one part of our breeding program, you know, we

have had some foundation bears and that have kept producing

over the over the generations and the the foundation mayor for

this family was his mayor was mayor named listen well, and

that was a a secretariat mayor that my parents purchased after

she retired from racing. So we we purchased her for as a

broodmare prospect. And you know, one thing about

this business, I, I, I like some of these sayings and that

there's a lot of times it's better to be lucky than smart.

And so in that case, we bought her and she was pregnant with,

with a foal that turned out to be a Grade 1 stakes winner.

And that was a, a Philly we named listening.

And so she, you know, she, she one thing about brood bears.

My, I don't know, I have these philosophies.

And then sometimes you think you're right and then you get

proven wrong. But in general, our best

broodmares have always come firing right out of the gate

with good horses. And so, you know, when Listen

Wells first bowl is a Grade 1 stakes winner, man, you know,

that's a nice feeling to have when you have a when you have a

band of broodmares. So she clearly immediately went

to the top of the list. And so anyway, started with

listen Wells. She fired right out of the gate

and then a little later on she had the mayor Beautiful noise.

I have the pedigree here, so I won't get I won't get my facts

off too far. But you know, Beautiful Noise

was a was a nice racehorse listening and beautiful Noise

were both trained by Ron Mcinally and they were based in

California. They pretty much based at Santa

Anita. And she she was a very nice, she

ran on the turf and she was a hard trying horse and, and she

wasn't a pretty horse either. That's that's where Burnham

Square kind of follows in the footsteps.

These are these horses have been runners, but none of them have

really been that pretty. So that's a bit of the

background. Yeah, I agree with you there

with Linda, you know, she she's sort of sort of made the same

way as what Burnham Square is, you know, so so my question,

Clay is do I put him on the grass?

Well, not for his next start. I.

Think you might want to wait till at least after the spring

to try that one? Well, Ian, tell me a little bit

about training his mother, Linda.

She was a Grade 2 winner on the turf at Churchill Downs and the

Misses Revere Stakes. Are there any other than the

looks, are there any similarities that you see

between the two as far as how they train?

She was, she was a little tougher.

Linda was always tough, not not in not real tough to gallop, not

tough to handle, but just was a little bit tougher.

Philly, you know, tough in that way.

He Burnham Square is much easier to to handle.

He he wants to probably because he's been gelded, which is

probably a benefit because he needed it because he was a

little bit like her early on before he got there.

But now he's he's easygoing. He wants to play with you.

That's what he wants. But with her, she was always,

just always overachieved. You know, I like that you know

about her because I think it Clay, correct me if I'm wrong,

her and Walkabout were in at the same time.

Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, and Walkabout just did

things better. But Linda?

Kept. Kept on overachieving and that

was a really good thing about her.

Do you find it to be an advantage when you've trained

the mother or the sire of one of your horses?

Do you see that as being any kind of advantage to kind of

understanding the horse once you get them?

Well, it's always nice, you know, you get to know them.

But well, I'm fortunate, you know, with the Withams breeding

program, you know, you, you see them come down, you know, the

horses are well bred. The horses are they come in

educated, you know, So yes, it's good to know them, but it don't

matter here because these these horses are, you know, are nice

pedigrees. And Burnham Square is Sire's

Liam's map. Clay, kind of what went into

your decision to choose Liam's map for Linda?

And what did you like about the Stallion?

We do put a lot of time into our breeding program.

And I mentioned to you earlier that that's really my, my mom's

the has always been the lead person on planning meetings for

the mayors. You know, we sit down and kind

of put a list together about horses that we would like to use

in our, in our meetings planning.

And we, we always, we just like Liam's map and I know my mom

liked Liam's, Liam's map. So, you know, we identified him

as a horse that we wanted to use, you know, based off of his

race record and how attractive he is physically as, as a, as a

sire. So we had him on the we had him

on the list to use and then once, and then we just kind of

figure out which mirror that we want to, we want to fit him on.

So I think that would be the main thing is I look, I look

back and there weren't any light bulbs that went off that said,

you know, we want Liam's map, we want Linda to go to Liam's map

because of this other horse saw bread on that cross.

But I think it was mostly we just wanted to find a mare to

fit onto him and that's the mare we selected and.

Welcome back Ian. I know we lost your video there

for a moment, but welcome back. Sorry about that.

That's all right. Hey.

Ian, if you blink off, I'll just talk until you can get back on.

I can count on you, Clay. I'm ready.

Well, just tell me a little bit about, you know, you guys have

worked together for a long time, the Widams and Ian Wilkes.

So just kind of tell me about how this relationship came to be

and all the success you guys have had.

I know you've had Fort Larned that won the Breeders Cup

Classic, quite a few other graded stakes winners as well.

So just kind of talk to me a little bit about your

relationship. I'll let you start at Clay.

How you come into the barn. Yeah.

You know, we had a had a racing program, breeding and racing

program and our our initial thoroughbred racing program was

the trainer with the relationship was primarily with

Ron Mcanally. I mean, I know over the over the

years that my my folks had to cut had a few different

trainers. But really, you know, the kind

of the evolution of the program taking a big step up was when we

we started using Ron as a trainer.

So we we sent horses to to him and had had great success with

Ron. And of course the the crown

jewel of that relations, that phase of the program was by

Akoa. And you know, Ron was

instrumental in finding her in Argentina and facilitating the

purchase. And so we, we had, we had, we

had some good horses with Ron. But over the years, you know, we

were observing how what we know when we first started running

horses in California, the purses in California were significantly

better than they were in Kentucky.

So as as good owners, you know, we do pay attention to the purse

structure and you know, it became obvious that Kentucky

purse structure was really improving.

So we made the decision, you know, in in the early 2000s.

So Bioco was won the Breeders Cup at Gulfstream Park.

So we hope we have keep our Gulfstream Park mojo going.

She won the, the Breeders Cup distaff at Gulfstream Park in

1989. So then in the early, so we, we

were based in California for many, many years and then in the

early 90s or excuse me, 2004, 2003, 2004, somewhere in there,

we made the decision to move the base of our racing operation to

to Kentucky. And, and that, that meant

Churchill Downs for us. And, you know, we looked around

and and thought about different trainers to to at the time to go

talk to and we we settled on on Carl on NASCAR, I'm sure

primarily because of unbridled and St. sense because you know,

we would like to win the Kentucky Derby.

So, you know, when you're thinking about changing and

going to a a program that has some certainly has some bearing

on it. You hear that, Ian?

They want to win a Kentucky Derby.

No pressure. Yeah, no pressure.

Well, Ian, from your perspective, you were Carl's

assistant at the time when they joined his barn.

How did you can pick up the story now kind of how did that

transition into you taking over from Carl for the widows?

Yeah. Leading up to that, Carl and I

were partners. I we developed a partnership in

in the training and created a Traits LLC and and so I was

always partners. And then in 2006, Carl decided

to take a your back seat and just kept Bentley Smith and the

ginters and taffles to train. And he wanted to give me more

recognition. He wanted as partners.

So I took over in 2006 and then and that's fortunate when I took

over, none of none of the owners left the barn.

They which which is a testament to the owners how for a program

that he built, they all stayed on and we went on from there

from 2006 and now been training like Clay has been in the barn

for 20. This is the 21st year and I, you

know, it's been been a lot of fun.

And you know, Carl is probably one of the best mentors you

could possibly have in this game.

What did you learn from him that's really kind of helped

your training style? He he done what I like to do.

I like to develop horses. I I think that's that's my Forte

is I I just love developing horses.

I like taking I like to yeah, it's always fun to have the good

horses, the fault Lonards, the Mccrackens, the, you know,

Walkathon. They they they're fun.

You know, they're great. But I like taking that average

horse and getting some black type with them.

And because I train for a lot of breeders and as they value

building, getting that black type for their for their mares

is I like doing that. I enjoy that.

And the biggest thing what you learn from Carl is he was so

good at pointing a horse for a certain race.

You know, like if our end goal is the Kentucky Derby, every

step we make is in lead up to winning that that race, doing

that, you know, and then and you watch it first hand.

I was fortunate. I was riding Unbridled in 90.

Then in 2007 we had St. sense and then we had Lady Joni.

So we we wanted to appoint Lady Joni for the Oaks, but she had a

set back. So we just made a determined to

appoint her for the Alabama. So we worked back from the

Alabama to get her there. And it's just he's Forte of

doing that was it was great to watch.

And so now kind of putting that on Burnham Square, you have a

target now on the Kentucky Derby.

He's got 20 points to qualify right now.

How do you get him through the next three months to get there?

It's building block, every step, every step, you know, we'll use

each race. I want to run him in the

fountain of youth, like the running back, most likely.

You know, let's take one race at a time, most likely the Florida

Derby. I think this horse needs a

couple more races because I don't need him to make.

You don't want to make mistakes in the Kentucky Derby.

That's the goal. So every every race is to.

I can't be afraid to get beat. I think that's the key, you

know, in each race. Yeah, I want to win every race,

but I can't be afraid. I've got to build this horse to

my ultimate goal and that's where I'll use each race to get

to where I want to go. And I know you were around 2

Derby winners with Carl and Unbridled in Street Sense, but

you've been down this trail before, both of you with

McCracken back in 2017. Did you learn anything from that

that you think will really kind of help you out this time going

forward? Yeah, you, you just got.

The biggest thing is you have to enjoy the race.

You know, sometimes you can get caught up in the hype and, and

get too worried about little, you know, things, but you have

to enjoy it. You got to sit back and let the

horse will take you there. If he's good enough, he'll take

you there and we just have to enjoy it.

And Clay, I know everybody always says at this point, you

know, it's still a couple of months away.

We don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

But when you see him win the Holy Bowl the way that he does,

do you go to sleep with a little extra dreaming that night?

Yeah, absolutely. You know when you when you win a

prep race, Yeah, It it makes you think, well, maybe we can.

And then I know you guys had Camp Hale run in the Sam F Davis

Stakes yesterday as well. He ran a pretty good race.

He is. It was his first start against

stakes company. He's still a maiden with three

seconds beforehand. But Ian, the pace really kind of

held throughout the race and he still ran strong to finish 4th.

I know he got nailed right on the wire, but what did you think

of his performance? I was very proud of him.

I thought the horse ran good come to the top of stretch.

Brian thought he had him. You know he was going to win the

race and and he just flattened out a little bit.

That's the only thing I if I I thought he made some mistakes in

the race and the only thing is maybe not He's Forte to go two

turns that far. I think I may freshen him and

cut him back to one turn. I talked to Clay about that

yesterday and with him, I wouldn't be opposed to maybe try

if I go back to one turn with him, he's put his set of

blinkers on because I thought they had a little bit lost in

the top of the stretch yesterday when we wanted him to go

forward. He he wandered around.

He's got, he's got a world of talent, but he'll he'll get

better as we go on this horse. Clay, before we started the

recording here, you and I were talking about just kind of

giving the horse the opportunity at this time of year.

If they if you think they're going to be a good three-year

old, you want to try them on the Derby trail.

You guys tried it out. How important was it to try it

out and now kind of rebalance the rest of the year for it?

Yeah, you know, you know, you have to take your shot when you

can. You know, it's when we have a

horse that looks like a nice horse.

You know, those don't in our program, those don't come along

every year. You know, it can be quite a

stretch time between having a a nice three-year old male and I

say that I keep thinking cold, but you know, we've gelded

gelded that that horse. But you know, it can be a while

in between having a horse that nice, as nice as Camp Ale.

So you know, with what he showed us in his first two races, he

has, he's a nice horse and we've always thought highly of him.

So we just wanted to give it, give it a shot.

It's, it's really a, a crazy year for us.

We have 3 really nice three-year old Colts and you know, just for

us to get a really nice colt, just to get one nice colt is, is

a real accomplishment. But you know, we, we have 3

really nice Colts this year and, and Camp Hill is, is certainly

one of those. And, and obviously Burnham

Square has gone to the to the head of the class and we

haven't, we have another colt that hasn't broken his maiden

yet and we're looking forward to trying to get him going too.

What's that horse's name? Pitkin all.

Right, you heard it here first. Watch out for that horse,

anybody that's watching this. All right, well, thank you guys

so much for joining us here on the podcast today.

I really appreciate it. Best of luck to both of you the

rest of the way with Burnham Square, with Camp Hale and every

every other horse that you guys have.

I'm looking forward. I always like seeing every time

I see the Woodham silks out there.

I know it's Ian Wilkes. So I'm glad that you guys keep

it easy for me to figure out who the trader is.

But thank you guys so much for being on.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Yeah.

Thank you. Thanks to Ian Wilkes and Clay

with him there for joining us. So I hear on the on Blood Horse

Monday, man, good stuff there. Sean, you are.

You're an expert now. It's really, you know, the thing

I worry about is I think we're very close to this being a solo

show and it's just the Sean show and then I'm out of here.

But several things to react to and I thought really interesting

points. But I liked how he talked about

with Burnham Square. By the way, last gelding to win

the Derby. How about that A?

Little bit. All right, so we're trying to

get back into those ranks here. It's fun to hear owners

especially. I'm so glad you were able to get

both of them for this. Just talk about, hey, this isn't

usual for us. This is a process.

We, you know, you talked about you mentioned secretary into

that clip just how how long it takes to establish these kinds

of programs if you want to do it the way that the widoms do

right. And so it really, really good

stuff there was there a singular thing two things that really

stood out to you when you were you were sitting with them

yesterday. I.

Really just enjoyed hearing kind of Ian Wilkes's process on how

he likes to develop I. Think that part was interesting

I. Thought that that was something

that he really kind of picked up from Carl Nashter for sure when

he had spent the time with him. And it's nice to see how that

carries over. And obviously Carl had so much

success with it with Street Sense, with Unbridled and to see

this pay off now and Burnham Square and Eden, I think, you

know, it's just a cool thing to see.

But just kind of listening to his, his philosophies on

training, I think it's pretty cool.

That's always cool when you get to sit down with a trainer and

you get to just kind of hear where their mind is throughout

the whole process. It's got to be too for a guy

like Ian Wilkes to hear that interview and how play is just

like we know there's a process. It's it's it isn't going to work

the same for every horse. The patients from an ownership

group like that has to be a real frankly, for an odor.

It's excuse me for a trainer has to be such a relief because it

doesn't always go the way you think of frankly, Sean, the more

I'm around horse racing, the more amazed I am that a horse

ever gets to the starting gate. It's a starting process to get

from A to B. And so no fun to hear those

guys. And one of the things you heard

him say was when he kind of took over as the main man in the barn

and none of the owners left, right.

And so right is a testament to Ian as a trainer.

That's a testament to Carl and, you know, the owners that he was

able to get. And, you know, obviously, every

owner wants to have a horse in the Kentucky Derby every year.

There's few owners that can actually do that.

And so for a lot of owners to kind of have the faith in your

trainer that they're going to be able to kind of pick out the

ones that are the Derby horses, make sure that they're on that

path and get them there with their best chance to win.

Because remember, the one time Ian Wilkes had a horse in the

Derby, it was McCracken. He was a legitimate shot in that

Kentucky Derby. Great track.

Kind of came up weird that day, but he was one of the favorites

going into there. So if he's, if he's there, you

know he's got a good horse. Barnum Square really love the

stretch out in his maiden win and then of course turns it back

again in the Holy Bowl. It was a race you and I talked

about last week, of course, as part of our race reviews.

Is that still the most impressive move we've seen?

Going from bat from last on the backstretch, getting up close

and then making that three path move to win?

I think so just because, just because of the fact that he made

multiple moves, he inched up earlier in the race, then he

kind of SAT and he waited. And remember we talked about

this last week, This was all while he was still being

considered a little bit nervous going into the race.

And so he's still, and Ian mentioned it there in that

interview, he's still not 100% there mentally.

And so the fact that he's already able to make those kind

of moves when he's not there 100% mentally, I think this is

definitely you got to have him, if not the top spot on your

Derby radar right now, you got to have him at least in the top

three. I agree with you, Sean Collins,

I'm Lou Rabob. We're hanging out with you on

Blood Horse Monday. Thanks to Ian and Clay for

hanging out with us in the previous segment there.

Of course, thanks for this guy for getting the interview

together. I really do appreciate that very

much. We with our friend Frank Anks

now from bloodhorse.com. There he is in that, in that

life. Isn't that just an official?

Isn't that that backdrop? Like I got a picture like that's

that's a dance from my wedding, then a poster from my first

Derby, like I, you know, like normal.

But Frank angst is he's he looks like a lawyer, doesn't he?

And a little bit of like legals. Is there anything important

behind you, Frank? I've always wanted just.

Leather bound books. I bet it smells great in there.

Frank Frank Angst, of course. Bloodhorse.com and all of the

things Stallion of the week, you'll see him as well doing a

bunch of work on the dollars and cents as well.

So Frank, what are you working on right now, buddy?

What do we need to learn about? I mean, I I thought we'd start

with the stallion of the week and right do it.

I mean, it's the I think with it, you know, it's 3 year old

season. So I think that's where our

focus is going to be for most of these and it takes us right the

constitution. I mean, John John Hancock just

so impressive in the stretch just refused to give in even

appeared to be headed really probably got neck up, really

neck behind and re rallied to to put an impressive win up in the

Sam F Davis constitution. You know, he didn't waste any

time from his very first crop. He had tasted the wall second in

the Derby and Belmont Stakes winner.

So classic winner in that first crop.

Constitution kept it going last year.

You know, he had catching freedom and placed in the dirt

in the Preakness. Sorry was third place in the

Preakness. So he's definitely a stallion

that is a classic minded, you know of breeders that go to him

are looking for the a classic type of horse that John Hancock

is. And like you said, who's back

this weekend catching? Freedom.

How about the mineshaft sticks this weekend?

There you go. So first start at Sand City,

Ohio Derby I. Got to say, Frank, I mean,

you're welcome to join Sean and me on the the board over

bandwagon this year. I mean, we just added a catching

freedom. What a group, huh?

Yeah, I mean, that's for sure. And I mean, you look, you look

at Constitution, he he won the 2014 Florida Derby.

John Hancock's got some familiar connections there, Winstar and

CHC. And Winstar, of course, is the

breeder. So they didn't have to go far

because they stand Constitution for $110,000 at their farm near

Versailles, Versailles, KY. So, you know, it's big things

for Constitution continue. I know we had a nice feature on

him in the magazine and just what trainers are seeing on the

track. And boy, he's off to a good

start for sure. We even saw, you know, a horse

like We the People a little bit later of a developer in the

three-year old spring wins. The Peter Pan was kind of the

buzz horse going into that Belmont as well in 2022.

So yeah, Constitution, he's sort of, that's another graded winner

there, Frank. I mean, they're kind of all over

the place, aren't they? And how about those names?

They get a lot of good names there.

Everybody's in Patriot with the. Scores.

I love it, you know, good stuff. I think he had it's a chasing

Liberty that also won this week. So yeah, just that's his other

stakes winner this year rather. So he's had two stakes winners

this year for Constitution and everyone's having a lot of fun

with with the names. I love it.

We were just joking that, you know, we saw online, some say,

oh, John Hancock didn't sign the Constitution.

And the second I saw that post, Frank, I don't know if you're

like me, the second I saw that, I was like, that horse is

winning. And there's some two ways about

it. You can't say that kind of thing

and not have it come back. No doubt about that one.

Go ahead. Yeah, Go.

I, I was just going to say, you know, I watched the the first

podcast, of course, off to a good start.

And, and it occurred to me that, you know, we, we very well could

have some viewers on here who are not familiar with Blood

Horse. So I thought I would just take a

minute or two to tell everyone about Blood Horse because I

think going in, we just, I just assumed everyone knew about it.

But just to take a few minutes to, you know, let everybody know

if we do have some new viewers that find us on this platform,

you're, we very much want you to come over to our other platforms

and we have a lot of them. Blood Horse is over 100 years

old. It's always been an industry

magazine. Industry publication is probably

more accurate these days. We're on a lot of platforms.

The magazine has gone to a monthly now and it kind of has

some longer features, really takes deep dives into news

issues in the industry, personalities in the industry,

as I just mentioned, like stallions and breeding.

That's that's working and and of course, sales as well.

Then because we're only a monthly in the magazine, you

know, we we have a terrific website where you can get all

the latest racing news that's split horse.com.

So racing, sales, breeding, really every corner of the

industry, industry type news issues that the industry is

following and concerned about. And along with that, we also

have a newsletter and the, the newsletter is free.

It's called Blood Horse Daily or BH daily for short.

And it's a little bit more business focused, but it, it

also has racing and, and more general interest type stories

for, for people there as well. So a lot of different platforms.

The, the website, besides having stories, also has a lot of good

information. Just like upcoming stakes, you

can see what stakes are on the horizon.

We have our stallion register, which is just huge for us.

And you know, on the drop down menu, you can search any

stallion and see how they're doing that.

The, the research on constitution, that's how I

gathered it went right to this page.

And you can see how he's doing this year.

You know, if you're a breeder, it's a it's invaluable to be

able to go there and, and find a good match for your mayors.

The other part, too, if you're you happen to be listening on

ESPN Louisville or wherever you are and you're sort of

peripherally around horse racing, if you're willing to

spend 5 minutes a week, yeah, reading Byron's great piece at

the Derby Dozen on bloodhorse.com.

Byron King, of course, and you just watch the replay of the

race that happened over the weekend, the Derby prep.

You're going to know so much on Derby day.

Any party you go to, any people you're hanging out with.

If you use bloodhorse.com, you'll even know on the Derby

trail, like Frank mentioned it. So all the stakes schedule, all

the different things. A terrific resource.

Years before I started doing this show, I was using

bloodhorse.com for all those things.

And it's so great what Byron has done with that column.

You know, of course Steve Haskin launched that thing and, and

Byron took it over and now you find a version of it online at

bloodhorse.com. It also appears in the daily, so

you can catch it there. And then Byron also does a video

so you can watch it there as well.

And at Bloodhorse, we have a, we have a mote mote night.

I mean, the vast majority of our site is for free, but we also

have ABH plus site, which is for our subscribers to the magazine.

So, you know, I, I think it's kind of fun, kind of retro to

subscribe to a print magazine if that's something you want to do.

But you also get, when you get that subscription, you also get

BH plus, which you're going to see some exclusive videos.

You're going to see videos before we put them on the free

site. You're going to see them first.

We also see have in depth reading articles on recent grade

one winners. We have MarketWatch was very

much industry oriented and just information you're not going to

find anywhere else. So we try to take advantage of

all those platforms we, we hope to and everyone can find a

platform that's correct for them that the magazine also has a

virtual magazine and an app now. So you can, you can get the

magazine that way and you save a little bit money since we don't

have money since we don't have to print it up and there's an

app, it comes on your phone. BH Daily also has just the best

app in my opinion of any racing news site, just a terrific app

that's associated with that and also has APDF.

So we have a lot of platforms covered and we're glad to be in

the the podcast realm as well. Yeah, no, I mean the site has

everything from like, like Frank mentioned, stallion registry to

which races are coming up. I mean, it's literally

everything from how a horse is made until the very highest

level of horse racing. So yes, my horse has got every

single thing for you. What should we be watching for

this week though on the website? Frank.

Well, we just, you know, some big three-year old races this

week that we'll be previewing for sure return of the horse

that really impressed me last year, East Avenue.

I mean, just tremendous debut win at Ellis and any just wins

at grade one at Keeneland as if it's no big deal Workout at a

troubled start in the juvenile. So I think that's very

forgivable. So anxious to see how he does.

I know you'll be watching because you mentioned this last

week on the pod, that first race back as a three-year old.

For those who have been at the high level as a 2 year old, it's

really important. Yeah, I think it's telling.

I mean it especially, you know, Louis, with fewer starts now,

it's just not a whole lot of margin for error.

I mean, maybe when you had six and seven starts before the

Derby, you could correct something, but it really has to

be right on schedule. You can't cannot afford much of

A set back at this point. Even to us, it's like, oh, it's

still February, but for these trainers, it's down to the new.

Yeah. That's a good point.

You heard Ian Wilkes mention that in that interview about how

you know, he still had, he still wants to get a couple more races

into him because he wants to make sure there's no more

mistakes by Kentucky Derby. Yeah, no, that's right.

It seems to be. And he talked about those

building blocks too. Great interview, by the way.

If you're just joining us live, go back and listen to that with

Ian Wilkes and the Widdam folks there.

They're stable really just a a terrific insight into, you know,

what the process is like of getting a three-year old on that

trailer, getting those things moving.

So glad they were able to join us here on the show as well.

I mean, I know you don't do the Derby dozen, Frank, but was

whose run was better. Do you think John Hancock to

Burnham squares this last two weeks?

I. Think I will.

I think I will slightly go with Burnham Square.

Yeah, I thought he had a little bit of trouble that he overcame

and the Trump, the type of trouble he came, the type of

trouble he ran into forced him to overcome a bit against the

track. You don't usually see that

running style. Of course that's that just said

I think. I think I might add John Hancock

rated higher in my NTRA. You.

Know Assistant Frank Eggs? There you go.

They really are. And frankly, you know, so much

of that is, you know, which connections do you trust?

Is there a breeding that you trust?

There are those sorts of things. Do you like a constitution more

than another, you know, sire, that kind of thing.

I, I don't know that they're. Look, for this part, we can say,

Frank, it's February. It's OK if we change our mind

now in the next 82 days. Frank Well, exactly.

We try to sort them out as best we can.

That's right also. Watch them play out.

That speed King is still the horse that's really impressed

me. I'm I'm going to really keep an

eye on that horse. I I really liked his run in the

southwest. So that that's one thing I'm I'm

sure of at this point. It could change a lot by its

next start or or maybe reinforce it even more.

Mike, you mentioned that you voted in the National

Thoroughbred Racing Association's poll, which gets

released every Tuesday. And what kind of goes into your

mindset of at this point of how you rank the three-year old?

Is it Derby, you know, or is it just who's running the best?

You always try to balance what have they achieved this year

against also potential. So it's a little bit of both.

I mean, when Speed King had his win, that was the most

impressive outing from this generation that I'd seen.

So I went and made him #1 But then the, for the second week,

Citizen Bowl came back with his big win.

So between being a champion and doing that, that made him an

easy choice at #1 So you're just trying to balance a little bit

of, you know, potential. But more I like to start with

what they have they accomplished this year.

You know, if East Avenue comes out and runs a big risen star,

that's going to move him up significantly.

I mean, I'll, I'm, I like that horse a lot.

So I would even consider him for number one or two, seeing how

it's, seeing how that goes. Yeah.

It's always a little bit of a of a balance there.

Yeah, a little bit of both is right.

While he is Frank Eggs, bloodhorse.com, go check out all

the great things going on at the website.

And of course, hey, go get signed up.

Go get the go get the magazine as well.

Like Frank said, I wouldn't use the word retro in the sales

pitch, but I would say, you know, it's like, I'm just

kidding. Oh, yeah, go get in there.

No, But honestly, it reminds me of, for example, Frank.

When I go to the track, I like to hold the paper tickets still,

right? I don't know.

Just get that print magazine. Yeah, that's right.

Impress your friends. Say I'm the 20 year old that

actually gets a print magazine. There you go, get yourself.

A coffee table, kids. You hear me, Frank?

I just want you to have a coffee table.

Well, there you go. Yeah.

All right. You know, on the, on the BH plus

this week we have an, an update on ISA.

You know, we think we cover the lawsuits and, and everything

that's going on there, but we also wanted to look at and see

how they are actually performing.

And you know that the safety numbers are much improved.

And that's an important story. It's really written for the

magazine. So we, we want to give that to

our subscribers first. But and if you are a subscriber,

you get the H plus. So that's one of those

advantages. It's a story along with four

video features. So it it's definitely an

interesting update and an important, important progress

for the industry really in terms of their safety numbers.

Yep, all right, it's chicken wings for me.

What's your must have Super Bowl food?

Sean Collins mozzarella sticks. Oh, I like Mott sticks.

Where does Frank Hanks go? I'm.

A big fan of Skyline Dip. I mean, not by itself, you got

to have some chips with that one, but.

Just this food. I'm not that hardcore on this

Skyline, but when you grow up in Cincinnati and you go to Skyline

late at night in your pajamas with your family, you're kind of

hooked for life. So.

All right, well, there you go. There's your skyline.

Read for the weakest Davis Frank Eggs, bloodwars.com our our

Fearless editor. We appreciate you joining this

week. Thanks.

Guys. All right.

There you go, Frank Eggs. We'll wrap up the show by

looking forward. Interesting part of the year,

right? So we had last week the three

Derby preps, 20 pointers all across the country, Long Island,

Miami, LA this week, back to Tampa for that.

That kind of in between trailed with the Derby at Tampa, right,

with the 20 points in the Sam. Jason and I called the Sam, by

the way. Yeah.

I'm down to keep calling it that, OK?

All right, so we got three. I was.

Wondering how long it was because I.

Talked to him yesterday or I talked to him on Friday on ESPN

Louisville and I said how is it going with getting it Called the

same and he said I think we're the only two we.

Got three. We got three now.

Jason there. You go, buddy.

So there you go. We get now into that Louisiana

Derby schedule, right? So Tampa and Louisiana are kind

of doing their own thing as far as space between their prep and

the Kentucky Derby. Six weeks.

Obviously with the Louisiana Derby, we get the Risen Star on

Saturday, we get the return, as he mentioned, as Frank

mentioned, up East Avenue this weekend, a horse that I agree

with Frank on, by the way, extraordinarily high on his

performance at Keeneland was him and Citizen Bowl 2 best

performances by two year old last year maybe.

Yeah. I mean, up there in that kind

of, you know, conversation outside of the immersive ones,

she's whatever, she's different. I get it.

But look. Looking forward, who is it on

that list that you're most looking forward to?

Is it in East Avenue or is it what are these horses that's

already run well, maybe even a Jonathans way a built something

like that. Is it any of those for?

Me, it's Jonathans way. I thought a lot of him as a 2

year old last year, so I really want to kind of see how he's

developed coming into his three-year old season.

I liked that he has already shown that he overcame the issue

that he had in the Breeders Cup when he was kind of stuck

between horses, didn't like it. He saw that next time out in the

Kentucky Jockey Club and ran well, so I want to see if he

keeps putting those pieces together.

Obviously, East Avenue is a big draw.

But. Built is one that I definitely

want to see because he went wire to wire in a small field to win

the gun runner and I'm coming back in a little comp.

He did not have a great trip. He was down on the inside.

He was able to still mount run and be right there at the wire.

He got nailed right on the wire. So he's what we talked about

Burnham Square and you know a couple different horses being

already kind of showing that they have some versatility.

I want to see what happens now as kind of the Deeper Waters

approach built and see whether or not he can he can float on

those. Yeah.

Is he, is he more of a Catalano, Louisiana horse or is he a Derby

horse? Yeah, those are real questions.

We'll. Find out this weekend.

No, that's right. Jonathan's way we haven't seen

since the Kentucky Jockey Club going the two turns there.

You know, this is a Bacoma indie, Charlie on the damn side.

This is this is a horse that can get back to this.

Obviously, the Rigney Racing folks with Phil Bauer, do you

expect him to throw up big this weekend?

Because, I'll be honest, I do. Yeah, I, I think he will.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we're going to learn a lot about him.

I believe we're stretching out to a mile an eighth this time.

And so you know that with Macoma, you know, he was really

good sprinting. You know, he went one going

along as well in the bluegrass. But you know, he won going

sprinting. I know Indy and Charlie, a lot

of times people kind of see that as sprinting.

So sometimes, yeah. And so, you know, you can see

where you want to see where this horse is going to go as far as

distance. I think this is going to be a

good test for him. I remember talking to Phil Bauer

last year about the distance with him going kind of

stretching out. He said it was kind of an

unknown at that point. Now that he's grown, now that

he's, you know, you would assume he's going to be stronger this

year. I'd like to see how he kind of

comes out of it. Yeah, big, big car there in New

Orleans this weekend for sure. Good cheer returns in the on the

Philly side of things in the Rachel Alexandra alongside

Simply Joking, who has been sensational and her two starts

to this point for trainer wit Beckman, Obviously ballerina de

Oro in here as well for trainer Chad Brown.

It sets up buddy. We're starting to I think, OK, I

shouldn't say we Louie robot me. I'm starting to realize not only

are these oaks waters really deep, they're really good.

Yeah. This is a talent to crop of

three-year old Phillies. Yeah, this.

Three-year old Philly crop is gonna be they might go down as

one of the best ones we because. We're going to insert Immersive

into it in the summer. Yeah, that's scary.

It's incredible. Print as good.

As it is right now. And then the two year old

champion who is the Dom in the division, is going to come back

at Saratoga. It is, you know, and we asked

Frank about this earlier with, you know, a catching freedom

coming back this year, that excitement that all of us have

about the older dirt male division, you know, where we

never have to worry about that. It's on the Philly side of

things. So for us to get this many good

3 year old Phillies to keep that DIS staff division rolling, I

love it so much, Sean, if you're willing to spend the time and

fall in love with with the Phillies especially, they're

going to run forever. It's why frankly, I'm rooting

for Burnham Square. It's gelded.

I might see him for a long time and it's a weird way to look at

your sport. But at the same time, if he's

good, I get to watch him for three years or four years,

whatever it might be. You know, with an idiomatic, if

she were a colt, we've never seen her again, right?

That's OK and I get it. I people need to pay bills and

we have an owner on he talks about those things.

I understand I'm not it's not a negative comment at all, but on

this side simply joking good cheer, Valerie into deoro.

I mean, just the list, just in this race Spectacular talent it.

Is and you look at Torpedo Anna, you know she's coming back as a

four year old. The last time I talked to Kenny

Mcpeak he was saying that he thinks she's probably coming

back as a 5 year old if everything goes well this year.

So you do want to kind of do that to me?

Don't, don't get me all excited on a month.

I got a whole week. I'm trying to lift my own skier

except for the eagles. Yeah, you know what?

That's fair enough. So.

You know, these Phillies, a lot of times you can see where you

can get a little bit more attached, catch them after the

spring because they're around for longer.

We were just talking about people who may be getting into

the industry, just discovering blood horse.

A lot of people don't know about the Kentucky Oaks.

That's, you know, outside of outside of the racing industry.

If this is kind of your first foray in the horse racing, make

sure you're paying attention to this Kentucky Oaks trail.

Get to know the Phillies there. This could definitely be as far

as quality of feel, the way it's shaping up right now, the Oaks

could be just as good as the Derby, if not a little better.

Yeah, you know, get out there to Keenlyn, go check out, you know,

go check out the Ashley, go out to those races that we see at

these different tracks that are going to be great.

The Bourbonette Oaks, of course, up at Turquoise Park.

I'm just talking locally here, but you know, races all over the

country. We're going to see that

Gulfstream Park Oaks. We're going to see, you know,

the, the, you know, the Santa Anita Oaks, all those races that

set up get to know these horses because frankly, you know what's

fun too? We'll double wager there Little

Oaks Derby double. That's not It's never an unfun

wager, if you will. Yeah, it's always nice to try to

hit both of them. I have yet to find out what

that's like to hit bowl. The winners, Would you have a

single Philly on top of your rankings right now for the Oaks?

Do you have one? I would have Simply joking at

this point. I just her running style wit

Beckman. What I saw him do with Anna

Marie last year, I would have him, excuse me, her.

It's Simply joking's case with Beckman in this case on top, but

that's only because of Mercer's, not here.

I want to be very clear. I'd put good cheer on top on

top. So I'm oh, they're going to have

her answer hopefully this weekend.

But I just she was so impressive to me last year.

I I got to see her run in person several times at Churchill.

I did not get that opportunity with simply joking.

So, you know, that might be part of it there.

But she just, you know, seeing her in the flesh.

I just think she's. Really, we need to come up with

whatever that bias is when you see a horse in person and then

you just can't get over it. We need a name for that.

The, the, the in person bias or the I saw with my own eyes bias,

whatever that is. By the way, comment that in here

on the Blood Horse Monday podcast.

So glad you decided to hang out with us.

Judith, Maxime and Judy all commenting on the show today.

Really do appreciate people doing that as well.

I guess we can wrap it here. A ton of steaks on the card

there, including the undercard, the Colonel power and all those

kinds of things. Just a cool risen star.

I might like it more than Louisiana Derby day because

there's still a lot of unknowns, right?

And I feel like there's something about this stage of

the 50 pointers. For some reason we always learn

something substantial during the 50 pointers, and I think that

starts to begin. When you look at the last, like

last year for example, Sierra Leone wins the Risen * and he

goes elsewhere to the bluegrass. Like a lot of times this is kind

of the risen star kind of acts like that central meeting.

So it's. Like base camp for climbing the

mountain, right? Yeah, it's like.

It's that central meeting spot in February.

And then the top contenders usually it seems like kind of

dispersed into different final prep races, whether that be the

Bluegrass, whether that be the Florida Derby, whether that be

up at the Wood Memorial. It seems like a lot of times

they kind of disperse that direction.

And you're kind of already looking at that with a horse

like East Avenue. You know, Brendan Walsh should

probably end up, you know, maybe at the Bluegrass the way he ran

at Keeneland last year. So I think this is this really

is when this is really when it starts.

This is when horses start quenching their spots in

Kentucky Derby starting game, not.

All of us can be sensible. We understand that.

Yeah, not all of us get quenched already, but February 1st game

February. But this is where, you know, you

really kind of start figuring out who this field is going to

be. There you go.

Well, he's Sean Collins. My name is Louis Rabo.

You can join us every Monday at 2:00 on YouTube on the Blood

Horse YouTube page. And of course, you can catch us

anytime afterward if you want to watch this show.

YouTube probably the easiest spot, but we'll be up on Spotify

as well if you're just a listener.

We're just so thankful that you decided not to make us part of

your horse racing week again for Sean.

My name is Louis. We'll talk to you next week on

Blood Horse Monday.