Matthew DeSantis reflects on Derby 150

Well, a man who's never been on the happy hour but has become a

regular on this show is Matthew DeSantis.

He joins us from Long Island. Whether he wants to or not.

He gets messages from me and I say, you're coming on the show

and he says, I guess I'll do that.

Matthew, good morning. How was your Derby weekend?

Good morning Lily. It's so good to talk to you as

always and I had a great Derby weekend, had a boy so much fun.

The Oaks and the Derby together that weekend.

Just so many great races, so many wonderful performances and

memorable moments as well, and wonderful narratives as well.

I mean the obviously the Kenny Mcpeek, Brian Hernandez Junior

Oaks Derby double is truly historic.

It's an all timer, right. I mean it's it is worth.

It is remarkable and that it is worth remarking, right.

I mean it is. It is absolutely.

Yeah. It's its own thing and and you

know we do hyperbole in sport all the time but the hyperbole

of being you know since Ben Jones like when we say names

like that it's got to stand out right and and so you know when

you it's essentially if people need like a basketball context

would be like since Wilt Chamberlain like it's that kind

of thing. Right.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean it it you just don't see

it and and just see the same jockey trainer combo.

Do it back-to-back days with horses that were not the

favorite. I mean, it's one thing if you're

sitting on the best horse in the race going in and you just know

it. These were both horses.

I thought Torpedo Anna had a much better chance and she

looked really good in that last prep race at Oakland Park in the

Fantasy. But still I mean that was a very

hotly contested Kentucky Oaks from a betting standpoint.

There were 4-5 six horses that were really attracting

significant attention from the betting public.

And and then Mystic Dan. I think a lot of us thought if

the track was going to be a little bit muddier that he

actually had a big chance. But he proved it's not about the

mud. It's about the trip and and he

really Ryan Hernandez Junior. I hope the owners give him maybe

a couple extra bucks on top of whatever year in that day,

because, man, he gave one of the better rides you're going to see

in Kentucky Derby history. You know, one of the things

about Kenny Mcpeak that I love and hate frankly is he doesn't

act like other modern trainers, right?

He runs his horses into shape and and we just had Lance Gasly

on who owns Mystic Dan and he said something that Kenny has

told him is I you know, a a race is worth 3 workouts and so

Mystic Dan is obviously one of these horses.

It gives me a little hope actually, that that Kenny might

want to run him in the Preakness.

Let's ask it a different way. Matthew, would you run him in

the Preakness if you owned him? If I owned him, probably not.

And and I say that only because of something that I heard from

Kenny the the other day. I think I read a quote that said

they tried to run the horse back before on two weeks rest and it

kind of backfired on them. Now obviously the horse has

matured since then and has filled out and got bigger and

got stronger, so maybe he comes back and and you got to let the

horse ultimately tell you what to do.

You don't want to have a firm from opinion on this without

taking into consideration how's the horse responding?

Is he eating all of his food? Is he, you know, perked up in

the mornings and things like that?

If the horse is telling you I feel good, then yeah, running

back in two weeks. But you always let the horse

dictate those things. And I do think the equation is a

little bit different these last couple of years because you

know, you have a pair, a very fresh Bob Baffert runners

waiting for you in Pimlico. If you go there as opposed to

what it used to be like back in the day where it was like, OK,

everybody from the Derby or the top five or six from the Derby

are all going to run back in the Preakness.

And so you're kind of getting a similar group back together.

Everybody's coming back on two weeks rest.

That's not the case now. Matthew DeSantis with You Can

Find Him at Failed to Menace on Twitter or X.

He does not follow me on there. How about that, Zach.

We've had him on the show like 30 times.

Refuses to follow. Me on Twitter.

Do you know what's funny? I have people.

No, no, Matthew. I have people like that in my

life, that I like a bunch of their stuff.

And then I realize I'm not following them, just the

algorithm throws them in my feed.

Right. And so that actually.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's.

Exactly true. That just seems to work out that

way. Something you and I disagree on

is Endlessly's inclusion in the Derby and and you were very

vocal immediately as soon as the American turf happened which is

the three-year old race going two turns on the turf there

before the Kentucky Derby that endlessly would have won that

race. By the way I agree with you but

I think it was worth it to try the Kentucky Derby.

He was my top pick after watching 2 fills last year do

most of the work could be good on dirt and then after I watched

I seized the Gray win the the pat day mile who finished third

in the Ruby Matthew. I was feeling really good about

47 to one. I'm not going to lie to you, OK.

And I I think I take the the Ron Moquette Whitmore approach to

horse racing and I want to ask you a question about how you

think about these things. So people don't know.

Whitmore ran last in his Kentucky Derby, came back, won

the Breeders Cup Sprint of all things.

So he finished his last in a mile and a quarter race here in

Louisville and then wins the Breeders Cup in 2020 in

Keeneland in the Sprint. Do you think something that we

just talked about with Mystic Dan, which is that Kenny runs

his horses into shape. Do you think any part of you

looks at a country house or another horse, and I'll use him

very purposely, who never ran again after the Derby just

because of the taxing nature of the race itself?

Do you think you've let that seep into your mind as, oh man,

if they run him in the Derby, he might not be a good turf horse

later on. It absolutely.

I mean I I think it it does seep in a little bit and it's

obviously a horse by horse situation.

Horses come out of the Derby in different situations and and

you're right about the Whitmore example's a really good one of a

horse that's able to come out and still run really well.

We've seen this in recent years as well, like even a horse that

Kings Barnes last year. You know, Ray's Kane went back

to seven furlongs. Wanna wanna list its stakes last

year? Yeah.

Exactly. I mean so some horses you know

and and sometimes also it's listen the Derby took a lot out

of a horse and now we're going to give that horse 789 months

off and they come back as a four year old and look really really

good and can have a really strong four year old campaign.

I just you know part of the reason I felt so strongly about

endlessly was really the quotes from Michael McCarthy the

trainer immediately after they won the Jeff Ruby.

He goes we're going to the American term and then a week

later well we're going to walk that back and maybe we're going

to go to the Derby. And if the and if the trainer is

kind of telling you this is a horse that should be on the

turf, then you know I I kind of trust the trainer maybe a little

bit more than the ownership group because the trainers

around the horse every single day.

Obviously the ownership group. The joke's on us because the

ownership group won the American turf anyway with Safari.

To. One with grand motion of

training. So you know they they got their

cake and was able to eat it too. But I do worry a little bit

about that. That's just such a physically

taxing race on a horse. And we saw how much bumping and

you know knocking together there was in the race on Saturday.

And you just wonder is this horse going to come back as good

as he was because he really had a chance to be maybe the best 3

year old turf horse and he still might be able to be that.

But it's just something which it just struck me the wrong way.

But like I said, the ownership group has every right to run

their horse where they feel fit. Matthew DeSantis with us.

He's at Failed the Menace on Twitter, he's with Naira Bets

and he joins us here on Rabo and Co on ESPN 680-1057.

Do you have other big takeaways out of this weekend?

Obviously there's the Brian Hernandez junior angle, there's

the Katie Mcpeake angle. I thought the other two angles

essentially Matthew that were most interesting to me is the

Japanese angle. And it's something that I know

guys like you and me are talking about, but I think you know most

of the world has seen it for with their own eyes.

Obviously till password running 5th, obviously forever young

being part of that blanket photo finish.

The other thing is stewards don't want to make decisions on

these big days, do they? Right.

They just don't want to do those things in the stretch.

I'm not sure by the way if Sierra Leone wins that race that

he stays up, right? But I think because Mystic Dan

was on the inside, they didn't have to pull the trigger on it.

What says you? Yeah, I would agree with to

address that latter part. I would agree with you that they

are a little bit like NBA refs in the last 10 seconds of the

game, all the whistle and they go, well, we're going to let

this one play out. And I think you're right that if

Sierra Leone does manage to get up and they really do have a

little bit of a problem on their hands because there's no way

you're going to be able to let that horse stay up.

And the irony of course is if either Sierra Leone or Forever

Young are not there, in other words, if it's just Forever

Young coming charging at the end or just Sierra Leone charging at

the end, they probably beat Mystic Dan because the two of

them are bumping back and certainly hurting their momentum

coming to the down to the wire. So yeah, I think it's stewards

absolutely kind of want to swallow the whistle a little bit

and that last coming down the stretch in these big races.

And I agree with you. Japan is coming for Kentucky

Derby and I've been saying that for a couple of years.

I was very high on thermostatic hockey last year and for every

young obviously ran an absolutely huge race defeated

Yahagi the trainer you know it brought Japan had his first

their first two Breeders' Cup victories a couple years ago at

Del Mar. These are world class horses

with world class trainers and I think we have to give a lot of

credit to the connections as well for TO password and TO

Saint Denis who ran in the Ali Shiba the day before those two

horses came over from Japan literally on like seven days ago

and ran absolutely huge races and 5th in the Kentucky Derby

for TO password and 2nd in the Ali Shiba, the first mission for

TO Saint Denis. So I I think the more people

have to start paying attention to those Japanese races and

certainly those Middle Eastern prep races, the UAE Derby, the

Saudi Derby, etcetera. Matthew DeSantis with us.

You're based in New York, so let's talk about resilience real

quick. I thought he ran a terrific

race. I said all week I thought he was

the best horse to come out of the wood since Vino Rosso.

I think he backed it up. I was surprised to hear Bill

Mott say that he thought he'd be a shorter distance horse after

this boy. He looks like a mile and a 16th

mile, an eighth kind of horse to me.

I'm a little surprised that he made those comments.

Yeah I I I don't know I I yeah, it's hard to say.

It's interesting. I was also kind of taken by

that. I thought he ran a great race

you know at the top of the stretch he kind of struck close

to the lead and all of us up here in New York watching

thought Oh my God we might get a wood winner.

The curse of Sue Saichi Pegasus. But you know it was, it was a

great effort And I do wonder if when Bill says we're going to

cut him back, if he is kind of talking more about a mile in a

16th race rather than cutting him back to A1 turn mile.

We'll see. I mean I think he, I agree with

you, I think he looks very strong at 8 1/2 to 9 furlongs.

I mean I think that would really kind of hit him right between

the eyes and you know, maybe the mile and a quarter is a little

too much. So we're not going to keep going

with the Preakness in the Belmont obviously.

But I think you know you look at him at a mile and an eighth and

he was a really good horse at that distance and he ran a big

race. I got a stronghold right behind

him, you know a little a couple of lengths behind him I thought

ran pretty well actually considering the the outside post

position. And so yeah, it's going to be

interesting to see one of the annual traditions and you know

this from following all these Kentucky Derby's is seeing which

of these horses go back to being one turn mile horses after this

race. And you know or in some cases

which horses end up becoming turn forces after this race and

and you know etcetera. So it it's interesting to see

what the connections are going to decide to do with all of

these. But I agree with you.

I thought Resilience ran a big race and look forward to seeing

him obviously up here in Saratoga I think probably

running some really big races this summer.

I made the comment off aerosol. I'll make it here that in the

Preakness, outside of Mystic Dan, obviously I want the Derby

winner in Baltimore. That's not a question.

But outside of him, I would rather have seize the day, seize

the Gray, excuse me, out of the pat day mile in the Preakness

field than anyone, frankly, in the Derby field.

What says Matthew DeSantis about that take?

Yeah, I think that's a reason. Well, first of all, you know

that Dean Wayne has no problem running a horse.

He. Don't care, yeah.

The coach is absolutely bringing Seize the Gray.

Yeah, I think the only horse that might potentially be

interesting is Catching Freedom, who finished a really close up

4th. I agree right behind that three

leg photo. But I don't think Brad Cox is

going to run that horse back in two weeks.

And so once you get beyond Catching Freedom, there was a

little bit of a gap between them and everybody else.

And it's hard for me to make a case for a horse like Honor

Marie who had a really rough trip, you know, to come back in

two weeks and you know, he ran big, but still, you know, to get

8IN that race, but still that race, I imagine take a lot out

of them. Strongholds are going to go back

to California. Bill Mott's going to cut back

resilience. So you start going down the list

and you know it's really not a lot of other options.

I feel like coming out of this Kentucky Derby, that really

would stand a good chance to run back in the Preakness other than

maybe catching freedom. And I don't see that happening.

So yeah, I agree with you. I'd rather see seize the Day

come back. And that's a horse that almost

qualified for the Kentucky. That's correct.

That's right. You know, you can do the

distance. And I I don't think there's a

problem doing two turns at all. Yes, he's the greatest son of

Arrogate. And so in that, in that very

limited crop that we got from Arrogate while he was still

alive, Matthew DeSantis with us, is there anything I haven't

brought up that you would bring up reflecting on the weekend?

You know, I think the only other result that I was really

impressed by and I enjoy is that rivalry between Vava and Alva

Star in the Philly and Mare print division.

And at 7 Furlongs, Vava is going to get her every single time

referring to Alva Star. At six Furlongs, I think Alva

Star is the better horse, but they run a lot of these at 7:00

and I think you know she was Alva Star was able to get Vava

off the bench last time and was able to beat her.

But Vava looks really, really good for Sheree Devoe and that

that she could have kind of take up the mantle from Goodnight

Olive as being kind of the top female sprinter in the country.

I thought it was idiomatic's comeback that she looked that

good off the bench in the slop, ran her race, her style, right,

All those things. It sets up that division because

I think pretty mischievous, you know off the bench there, all

those things, you know, once she gets back in the form cycle

starts running again. This year I think we got a

chance at idiomatic being a back-to-back to staff winner.

But man, I think that we just got a good group of older Philly

mares this year. I think it's going to be.

Awesome, 100% agree. The Distaff division over the

last couple of years has in my opinion, been the best and most

competitive and most fun division to be following, and

that idiomatic and pretty mischievous are absolutely

backing that up. And then we haven't even

mentioned Nest, who's eventually going to start coming back to

racing. So it's going to be a really fun

division, whether they're going long or sprinting.

All right, so let's put Matthew in a terrible spot.

Are you ready, Zach? We're going to put Matthew in a

terrible spot. Matthew, are you going to

Preakness? I'm not going to the Preakness.

OK, I've been to the Preakness many times, but I'm not going to

the Preakness. What if you had a place to stay,

a place in a rental car, and a free dinner on Friday?

That I'm probably there. You know, I can make the trip

down to Baltimore. It's only what about four hours

from where? I am.

Up to text. Text David Joseph today and then

once you hear from David Joseph ping me, there is a place in our

Airbnb for you if you can make it down to Baltimore.

Oh, that's awesome. All right.

You didn't put me in a bad spot at all.

That sounds fantastic. I'll tell you, these childless

guys, they got a lot better. I'll tell you what, it's just,

you know, it's just, you know, just make it happen.

Just run around. Oh, Baltimore, two weeks.

Sure. I could do that.

I'm like, oh, I need to know seven years in advance.

Like this is not an option. This is the beauty of yeah, I

just have a 17 year old dog and my roommate can take care of.

Her. Here it is.

Very easy to. Do fantastic.

Alright well he's like no, I like to you know we we had Kevin

Kilroy a bunch last fall and then we had an extra spot in our

Airbnb for the for the Breeders Cup and I I pinged Jim Glucks, I

said hey, can we get Kevin, he's like for Kevin Cup so we had

Kevin out for Breeders' Cup. So you'll get to be our

Preakness guest this year. How about that?

I I love it. That sounds fantastic.

And I've been to the Preakness before.

We're not going to do the Preakness infield.

I did that when I was 24. Yeah, you do remember part of

the race? Yeah, you do.

We're going to just stick to the the kind of the older guys

version of the Preakness this time around.

I'm pretty boring these days. Yeah, that.

That's the whole thing. There you go.

He's Matthew DeSantis at Failed the Menace.

You can find him with Naira Bets and all those things.

I always love talking to him and I love that you're willing to go

back and forth about horse racing.

Yes, we are normal people. How about that?

But he is Matthew DeSantis. Hey, we'll talk to you about

Preakness then. The only thing is you're going

to have to be on the radio show then because we're going to do,

we do 4 hours of radio around the Preakness.

You'll just have to do that. 100% I just did a four and a

half hour live stream on Oaks Day so I can talk for as long as

you want me to talk. As long as you have a hat on,

we'll still be friends. There you go, Matthew DeSantis.

Get out of here. We'll talk to you soon.

All right. Thanks so much.

There you go. See you.

There you go.