Pat Cummings from Thoroughbred Idea Foundation Visits the Show!

Alright, welcome to another edition of the horse-racing.

Happy hour. We are in the weird week between

the previous recap and we can't quite yet.

Do it Belmont preview, although we're getting pretty close for

getting, you know, some news there back and forth about who's

gonna be in the Belmont, who's not, I'm sure Louis is

devastated that to Phil's, not running the Belmont.

I'm okay. He'll be here for, for preview

day, he'll be here for ya. He'll be here for some stuff.

I'll get Watch him in person which is okay.

So you're better. You're better that you get to

watch them in person. I look, selfishly, I'm good.

Yeah, I did. Look at that.

The Met Mile Line up. It is looking pretty solid.

It's always that card. Mike, you and me top 500 across

all year. We love it.

So yeah. No looking forward to that a

couple weeks but we'll do a lot of that talk next week today.

We've got a very special guest so we go and bring Pat on pack

Cummings. Who is with the Thoroughbred

idea Foundation, which I just like love the concept of the

throw but idea Foundation, they and their yeah.

Huge impact on racing. So this is this group Pat, make

sure I don't misspeak. But like the whole idea behind

the Thoroughbred idea Foundation is to come up with great ideas

to make horse racing sustainable and you know your look at it

from all perspectives from the owner to The Horseman to the to

the the athletes themselves to the better.

And then you guys just do. Awesome work.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Like a lily look, it's been a

five-year Hall. All to get us to kind of where

we are and now I actually think there's a little bit of momentum

but you're right I mean the whole origin wise can we improve

the sport for the to voluntary Financial participants the

people who choose to put up their money and from that

investment trickles down to everyone else across the sport,

the owners and the horse players and if you don't make it better

for them, they're not going to stay right.

They need to see a reason to keep Participating in light of

all, of the other possible choices, they have to spend

their discretionary income. Why do it in racing and why

continue to do it? And I know there's always

challenges that all horse players.

Probably all horse owners to face at some point in time.

Do I continue on? Do I keep doing this?

Because we all kind of faced setbacks along the way and I

think we all feel that from time to time and many of us Pick up

and keep going and some of us say you know what, I want to do

something else, we want to limit the times that that happens.

And unfortunately the sport hasn't done a great job of

instilling that in horseplayers and finding reasons to keep us

particularly in light of the most competitive environment for

gambling ever and only getting more.

So for those of us that live in the, the great Commonwealth of

Kentucky, so you know, there's a lot more things that we can do

these days and horse. Racing has to get out there and

compete and do it relentlessly and not apologize for it.

I know you got questions so much.

What do I do for sure? We put it on Twitter.

I got a bunch of messages from people that wanted to ask a

bunch of questions. If you've read any of the

stories recently about, for example, the Quinella bet any

irregularities at Gulfstream Park that was largely, the

investigative work of the Thoroughbred idea foundation and

you can find them, by the way, tracing think-tank.com Pat's on

Twitter at pad Cummings tifu want to go find him there as

well. You know, we have lots of

questions pad, you mentioned the better.

Obviously, that's Usually who's watching the show but then of

course we show up at racks and I mean a trainer they've been

listening as well that kind of stuff but how much of a chance,

you know, you talked about this competitive gambling

environment, how much are we hurting?

The competitive gambling environment of horse racing with

what I'll call batch betters how much how much does the two

dollar five dollar kind of better?

Does he have a chance against those guys?

Well, you know, it's kind of one of those Beauties in the eye of

the beholder. I think kind of, you know,

success is in the individual consideration of every horse

player. So it gets tough to put

everybody into an individual segments and and necessarily I'd

say you have paint a broad brush stroke, but I will say this

overall look, this is I think this is the year of talking

about this. This is the the really super hot

topic. I know there's going to be a lot

of Just coming up for the industry throughout the rest of

the year. Where I know this is a major

topic of discussion. It is undeniable that the big

computer-assisted, wagering teams players, groups, whatever

you want to call them. They're getting bigger.

And I don't think it's just a function of their participation,

increasing by their own choosing, but it's a combination

that they are maybe playing a little bit more.

But ordinary horseplayers mainstream players aren't

playing as much or have stopped altogether, right?

So if you incentivize those bigger players to play a little

more with an even bigger rebate, right?

We're talking say go from 13 percent average rebate to 14

percent that can increase their play substantially, and the

mainstream customers aren't seeing as much reason, right?

That there's Belay Dodge drops, they're seeing the mass of

crushes in exactas and double payouts, not to mention them.

The other multi-race bets. Sure.

I where we see from time to time.

So I think what the reality is, we can't be anti-progress and

being against CAW bedding in all forms, I think is anti-progress,

we need to be for modernity for technology for trying to attract

more players are trying to attract young engineers.

He's right. Young programmers.

Who want to model the heck out our data, right?

We want that. That's like they have in

baseball or basketball or football anything like that.

Absolutely. That we want that, right?

We want more of that. But we need to do it with some

guardrails and there's very few of them out there right now.

I'd say, you know, examples there of would be like Oaklawn

Parks show. Adding rebate for on track show

up on track. Yeah right.

Yep. New York has it right?

Naira has probably been the leader in kind of going from

having a lot of crw played a limiting that crw player CAW

play over time and so they cut them out of the wind pool inside

of two minutes to post greatly limiting, the late odds changes,

right? The dropping when they break are

right, those sorts of things, more track should be adopting

that it least. Until we get a better handle on

how the market has evolved and changed over time, we need all

of our customers to want this, to be a competitive Marketplace,

and not really experienced a lot of dominance.

They already have technological dominance, right?

They should be the best player in the room, right?

If you're spending Millions a year, on your racing algorithm,

you're racing betting algorithm in an analytical tool.

You should be pretty good, right?

You should be quote, unquote, better than the guy, who shows

up at Churchill on Saturday will hundred bucks in his pocket,

right? But we want that person who has

the hundred dollars in their pocket to have a chance to not

experience these crushing late movements to get a little bit

bigger. Bang for their Buck Right?

Get a little bit more back, increase that players churn we

want to see that player directed to bedding.

Maybe place and show bit The abandoned years ago, right?

As opposed to betting half of that bankroll on the Pick 6, but

they're very unlikely to win anyway.

And I think that's the dialogue that really needs to kind of

happen from here. How do we Inspire mainstream

play and protect mainstream play and increase churn while

controlling the evolution of the caw play bit better and we can

do better job on this show honestly.

I mean, I mean, We give out sequences all the time but we

could be talking more about how, you know, this is a good bet in

this race to do a place and we do it from time to time Louise I

think say hey for this long shot this would be a great place show

better or whatever else we talked about how much I love the

win place and show because I'm not a serious.

I'm not a serious gambler. I'm self-admitted that I'll go

and play. I just I love the sport and I

love the competition aspect of it but it's rare for me to go

out and bet 50 to $75 to $100 on a race day.

So perfect. You guys just the product of the

most successful marketing that horse racing is done over the

last 20 years which is better little when Allah.

Yeah. And try and focus players into

those pools and the reality is based on the research that we've

done that the algorithms do really, really well right, the

tougher, the better it is, the more power, they're processing

abilities. Have in cover In combinations,

efficiently. Whereas the ordinary kind of

hundred dollar weakened player is very inefficient

traditionally in the way they play those beds but you see it

in all the TV broadcast or what's your pick for?

What your pick, five ticket, you're attracted by 15% low,

take out, pick fives, those sorts of things, you know, your

takeout rate is, if you don't hit 5 of 5, 100%, right?

You lose it all, take out only matters if you win and we need

to be Pushing our players is an industry into bets that kind of

meat where they are in the sport that will keep them

participating in the sport. It's good for Horseman, it's

good for racetracks and its really good for the player

long-term, and you have to put it in in light of where Sports

beddings. Evolution has gone, right?

So put the concept of the parley aside.

I think there's a reason why sports betting parlor ladies

have grown in popularity. Clarity.

They've been pushing them and they're one of the few areas

that I think that are really profitable for the the sports

books but the vast majority of sports bets that you see are low

odds. Propositions meaning meaning

High chances of winning relative to what you see in horse racing

that very rarely. Do you get a five or six or

seven, one prop, or a two-way ring the three-way bet in sports

betting. These are typically you know

there's a lot of 32 There's a lot of 625 and when players are

playing that in sports betting they're winning more, right?

And they're churning more and it's not to say that Sports

bets, you know, that that straight up kind of yes, no

over-under. With the spread as opposed to

saying, moneyline bits are incredibly profitable for the

sports books right now we know that isn't the case because of

kind of the ridiculous consumer acquisition pushed, it's been

on, but But racing needs to find a way to compete and pushing a

lot of our customers into the next big all Stakes.

Pick 5 sequence might not be the most holistic way, most

sustainable way to build our business.

Well, don't worry the maiden special weight anchors, the end

of the pick, five at all this weekend, so I won't be giving

out an all Stakes, pick five hours.

So Pat, you know, good news, bad news for Derby record handle at

the Derby for Churchill Downs. Bad news, of course the track

conditions, maybe not the track conditions, just the breakdowns

of the horses there. Let's start with the good.

Let's start with Penny breakage, frankly that brought a million

bucks back in the pockets of the better is.

I remember Josh Mike, what we had the hppa president Yeah

Thursday that sound right? No Wednesday.

It was yeah, it was Wednesday. That's because we're back side,

right? And it was like oh you know,

break it and I'd rather that you know whatever and then and then

the weekend happened and I was like oh that's a million

dollars, bro. Like that's that's a legitimate,

all my money. And that is something that Pat

was very much behind. What what have you heard from

people, too? And I'm also interested in hey,

real quickly, explain explain for our normal.

Patty breakage, by the way, he talked about that and is there

Is there anything good about horse racing becoming a big day?

A big event sport. I'll just deal with that part

first. I think in today's world, it is

so much easier to draw attention eyeballs the wallet when you're

getting a little bit more than just a run-of-the-mill

experience, right? So a day at the races, at

Churchill, this Saturday is different than a day on on Derby

Day or on Breeders Cup Saturday or on Stephen Foster.

Right to the Stephen Foster preview day coming up, it.

I think it's just in our nature, right?

To be bombarded by that, which is a little bit bigger, more

lights, more attention than Nice.

Great three steak and you know nice day out of the races and I

think that's just that's just kind of a Natural Evolution.

So I'm really looking forward to the Belmont Day card.

I think it's probably the two greatest days of racing outside

of the Breeders Cup and triple crown that we get all year.

It's just a such a tremendous thing and it has been at the

expense of some of the normal, the normal racing.

I've seasoned and kind of schedule and things but you

know, it's just I think that's just my living in the times that

we're in right now that we have to deal.

I think the generation slightly younger than Mike and me, you

know let's say late. 20s to late 30s loves events, right?

I think they're I think they are.

They're not, it's a generation that isn't built on things.

That's a generation built on experiences and those horse

races are those days are definitely experience and you

need to lean into that. Like you need to meet people

where they are. And I just the way that life is,

I don't know how you can attract someone to come to racing forget

daily but just Weekly, right? That if you can, can anchor the

sport around one big day, a month and if that's where you

can meet someone to 12 times a year, you've got something

there, right? Heck, if you can get them, six

times a year. You're doing really well.

Kentucky does it better than most right?

Kentucky. Has that.

Advantage has a lot of natural tendency to attract people to

raise it on the penny breakage side.

This was a huge win for horseplayers.

I think for racing overall, no one is ever going to be able to

trace the exact lineage of where every penny paid back to

horseplayers ends up going. But I know this put more money

in an active horseplayers wallet.

And chances are There will be more active horse, playing as a

result. Penny breakage is really just

talking about getting the rounding of dividends from a

pair of mutual payout to the nearest Penny.

As opposed to the dime, which has been the case for almost all

of American Racing for the entirety of paramutual, wagering

to round, winning dividends to the lowest dimes.

So if the raw pay out on a two dollar, let's just say a $1 bit.

Came out to be five point one eight cents.

Let's say, let's say it's a two dollar bid.

Five point one, eight five dollars, 18 cents you got $5.

Hmm, having a dime Well on $2, it's really 5.0 9.

Let's say so exactly know. 9 times 2, right?

Got you. Okay, I'm coming in from a

couple different ways because as you're doing so on every dime.

So, for every amount above an even dollar amount or an even

Ten Cent increment, That amount got rounded down and retained.

And where it went essentially went to the BET taker.

So let's say you show up and you're betting and you've got a

two dollar bit and you get seven dollars back.

You may have gotten 718 or seven 16 or 14 years.

Whatever it was, but you only saw seven dollars.

He's an okay guy. Got my $7 the leftover, let's

call it. 18 cents is kept by the bed taker so if you're betting

on track at, Churchill Downs, Churchill Downs.

Got your 18 cents and Churchill would have an agreement with the

Horsemen's Association to split that. 18 sets, some of it going

to The Horseman for variety of reasons, some of the purses Etc

and then some to the racetrack keeping it themselves well as

everyone that is involved in racing, pretty much knows.

Most of the money is not better the racetrack anymore.

So if 90-plus percent of the handle is coming from an

off-site location, it is those bet takers who Tang breakage to.

So if you on your ADW, I mean bet you make an ADW that has

breakage, the atw is keeping that money.

Look, maybe some of it trickles back to you in some form.

Some little rebates of incentive program, some cash back award

that sort of thing, some points program but maybe it doesn't.

Hmm, our belief is that, this is just like a tax break.

That, that money is better in the hands of the taxpayer, give

it back to them and It to them directly and Kentucky's

legislature. Agreed Governor beshear agreed.

It was part of sweeping a paramutual, taxation reform,

kind of been born out of the legalization of historical horse

racing and the lead legislators no longer in the legislature.

Adam Cain egg from Northern Kentucky, who was just

phenomenal for all of. This basically said in the

hearings, I want us to give something back to the horse

player. H.h., He's given to the

community, right? Give another tracks.

It's given to the horse, we've given to the universities that

are tied to the equine industry. Let's give something back to the

whole to the horse players themselves.

And what that has meant is since July of 2022.

When this went into effect, we're approaching the one-year

anniversary more than five point.

Two million dollars has come back to horseplayers directly in

only the win place and show pools.

Wow, it affects every pool, we're not tracking every pool.

We are just tracking pure win place and show because that is

really where you see it and feel it, the most the lower the

payout, the greater the percentage of breakage.

And instead of getting your you know two dollars and twenty

cents on a show, bet you know where 20 cents is your profit

off of a two-dollar bit. Now, maybe you're getting 28

cents. And that's what percent.

That's a lot of money. That's a lot of money.

Exactly. Right.

So as a percentage of profit it matters a lot in those in those

pools were the payouts maybe a little bit smaller and it is

made those competitive in the derby alone.

Let's see. It was three hundred eighteen

thousand dollars. The Derby race itself in the

wind plays and show pulls that was given back as a result. 1.1

million dollars on Oaks and Derby Day.

And like I said, 5.2 million so far and it's just continuing,

right? It's it's a train.

We just keep rolling the head and give it more money back.

And I think it's great, and I know that a good chunk of that

money is coming back into the pool and it is, I think helping

everyone in the downstream of where that handle goes.

Right, let's go into the bad stuff which We unfortunately saw

an unusual, I don't ever remember anything like it in all

the years that I've been around Churchill Downs which I'm

assuming is longer than both of you, maybe even combined not

that I'm, you know, I don't know.

I don't know how would your path, but I've Been Around

Church on for a long time. Well, you've been hanging out

there longer than I've been alive.

So that's a true judgment thing. Yeah, so and by the way, I

completely inside joke here, but I completely Kirsten jinx.

This Derby for this. Even so but at the end of the

day, Churchill Downs, had a special announcement today.

They talked about what they're going to do in order to kind of

you know I firmly believe that the church will be on surface is

the greatest surface in the world on the dirt.

Especially I know we've had some problems on the turf course, but

a lot of the what's happened at Churchill with the horses

breaking Downs happened on the dirt.

You know, this is not the Santa Anita thing, a couple of years

ago, where there may have been some weird weather sir.

Um, stances that led to soft spots in the track and all that

kind of stuff. So, they took three really

interesting actions today and I'd like to get your opinion on

them. Let's start with kind of

pausing. The track base incentives for

start bonuses and paying out past all.

You know, paying every starter bonus.

Every horse in the race. Now they're only paying out

three first through fifth place. What are your thoughts on this?

It's a direct hit to incentives, right?

If you're kind of meeting an actual problem or a perceived

problem with an adjustment to the economic incentives.

So you can't just run go around there finish last and collect

the check. I think it makes sense.

It makes people think twice before entering a horse.

It is it is a step. Up, as you said, there were a

couple others but is that in itself enough?

I don't think so are any of these on their own enough?

No. But all of these things that are

being done and more to come, I think are a hope are all going

to make sense. But look, this is just a very

direct economic incentive argument, and it could have some

effect. I do think though, from my

perspective, If that this is the most significant one of the

three and I don't know how you feel about it.

Louis the other two, by the way, just real quick so we can just

put them out there. Restricting, the number of

starts per horse, 24 starts during a rolling eight week

period which you know makes a whole lot of sense in my

estimation. I don't I haven't tracked it

enough to know that there's horses that are running on

mostly from horses that running and you know not lower level

claimers necessarily but usually in lower level claimers and

where they're in the old school model where it's at, Snot

workouts in between races, it's just races in between races,

right? And then the in an eligibility

of poor performance over horses, beaten by more than 12 lengths

and five consecutive starts. That's that's a lot of races,

you know? Then the basically they have to

be approved by the medical director to return to racing to

me though, like the incentive for a local trainer to put a

horse on the track, just to go get that paycheck.

Now, they've got to really kind of be more selective than

picking. These are spots because you want

to get that top five finish to get a paycheck.

You know, and double-edged sword though because you do want the

bigger field, it's going to reduce field size, it is, but

we're not going to come seen any touring like that.

I hope not. I mean you haven't looked at the

Saturday card obviously, but I do think.

I think they've attacked at the right spot here Pat and if you

disagree, I'd love to hear it that by and large.

I think 91% of these are 92% of these breakdowns have been

racing. One has been training.

So horses, you know, trainers aren't sending out their horses

to train when they're not ready but they may be doing that for

the racing and I think by putting in this kind of

restriction on a just start where do you know whichever

horse you want because you're going to get as long as they

passed the finish line or they get out of the gate, or

whatever. They're going to get a check for

it, I get it. I understand the other side

where the field size thing, does matter, I understand that for

the better. But at some point you have to

try to understand why it is that you have a Ash like this

especially when you're going to race for another month and so

that where do you fall on that? Every horse injury is an upset

bit for owner and all the people that care for the horse and it's

a lot of people, there's been a lot of investment in these

horses. There's a tremendous amount of

daily care more than almost any, what?

I'll call Mass owned animal, you know.

It's just an overwhelming amount of care that goes in to looking

after an in training thoroughbred.

The they're fragile. They always have been fragile.

It is the nature of their physiology.

And and so, anytime there is an injury and that Humane

euthanization is chosen as the best path, the most Humane path

for those horses. It's a serious thing and you

should study and investigate every reason and Every step and

every possible precaution to ensure that that doesn't happen.

Because there are so many people affected along the way because

that horse is no longer active, right?

It affects a lot of people and the greater business is a whole.

So for anyone to suggest at a you guys aren't but for anyone

to suggest that the industry either doesn't care about this

or hasn't been doing enough. These things sometimes can just

happen and in the state of where Churchill Downs is right now of

The Twelve deaths. You had two of them were

injuries sustained on the turf course, two of them were the

suspicious deaths of the Safi Joseph horses.

One of them was a horse in The Paddock and I believe one or two

of them. Horses did not suffer any

skeletal issue. So, we're talking about maybe

five incidents on the dirt track five or six incidents, On the

dirt track overall and again there that's problematic but it

is unfortunately a part of a performance animals Sport and it

does happen. And these horses are really

incredibly well looked after. And you combine that with the

fact that Veterinary scrutiny has never been higher uniform

rules are in place and spreading essentially Across America and

that from a Met an observation point of medication.

We have never had more specific thresholds for testing

medication, to understand if someone is trying to take an

inch. And if that is potentially

dulling pain, and a horse, or affecting their performance, in

some way, shape, or form. So, these sorts of steps that

Churchill has made, I think there could be more, I think, if

you see a horse, get loose and run off, if you see a horse rear

up. If you see a horse break through

the Starting Gate, I think we need to realize our whole.

Our sport does not happen in isolation just because you're

not betting or watching for the love of.

It doesn't mean that the racing and these incidents happened

with with no one else paying attention to the right.

If anything, these incidents are proving that point and you have

to take steps to communicate better to the public.

And and to be proactive better than reactive.

And unfortunately, a lot of this has been reactive.

These are things that have not been put in place.

That probably should have been in place for a long time.

And I'll go so far as to say that on Derby week itself, there

were really some missed opportunities.

You had to verifying get loose the day or two before the Derby

and was running like a madman around the track for probably

582, a mile or six for a long before he got caught.

He may have brushed them. Real, you know what?

He backed up really badly in the derby, you know, after a really

fast pace and his Antics were captured in various social

videos and shared and then the day before the Oaks and tell me,

no lies gets loose and goes on a joy ride on the, the asphalt, on

the back stretch. and, That was caught on video.

And it's like hmm. The presence of those horses in

the races that they were in themselves, should not alone.

Be the the green checkmark that they've been passed fit to race.

You need to go a couple steps further, because if something

happened to verifying and something happened to and tell

me, no lies in the Oaks or the Derby, those videos would have

been front and center saying, Look what happened yesterday.

And we just need to recognize that you can't possibly be too

transparent to open to communicative, or really too

cautious. And, and Horsemen have to

understand that, and the racetracks have to be willing

to, to get a little more communicative The Authority.

The federal Authority haisa has to do with the commission's have

to do it. Everyone needs to be more open

and forthright. We use a sport, should have

nothing to hide, we care for these animals so incredibly,

well, there is so much time effort and money spent on the

life and care of these animals. We need to be as open as

possible, not just to our own stakeholders in our own

participants, but to the greater world.

And that's where I think we failed as a sport that we have

just been Very insular. We've turned inside.

We share only with our own. We talk about it amongst

ourselves and we need to be talking out as opposed to

everyone who visits the backside on Derby week falls in love

again, right? And the thing that always

strikes me when I'm back there, it's the Monday Derby week and

I'm just lug equipment and whatever else, you forget?

How many freakin people work back there.

Just how many bleep and jobs are on the backside?

It's remarkable. And how all of them.

It is incredible to the person. Is doing something very similar

where it is just completely in the care of the horse.

And it's a and it's something we just don't share.

We, we just don't share those things.

The other thing I always like to bring to close these kinds of

conversations and I'll let you go go after that bad.

But in the same election in Florida, people voted for Ron

DeSantis and to end dog racing. I mean like this is this is a

different era. We have to be realistic, too

about how people feel about animal racing in general and

people love horses even though they're not around them as much.

Dogs, they love horses, they really do and they find them to

be really beautiful. And interesting animals.

We have to be way more transparent and Raymore, just up

front about how we run our sport.

I agree with you. The best defense is a good

offense and you need to be on the offensive and it's not by

pointing at people and you know, telling them they don't know

what they're talking about. It is in doing things.

You know, the number of people that touch a horse on the back

Stretch at tracks Across America.

The number of Specialists that we have, right?

You have the equine chiropractor.

You have the farrier. You have the dentist, you have

the groomer, you have the Vets, their assistance, the trainer's,

the assistance, the groom's themselves, the hot Walkers.

The exercise Riders, there is so much that we can be telling the

world about this Sport and sharing it with them.

We have not done that. I think The opportunity is great

to the point about Florida, you bring up a really good one, the

amendment the Constitutional Amendment that helped eliminate

dog racing that process. There were I want to say nine or

ten other amendments on the ballot that you none of them.

God has many votes in favor of one side or the other than the

eliminate greyhound racing. And the I'll tell you this the

first First line, I've memorized it.

The first line in that amendment that was on the ballot.

It said the Humane treatment of animals is a fundamental right

to the people of the State of Florida.

It was not dogs, it was not racing greyhounds, it was

animals. And that process in Florida goes

every 20 years. It's called the Constitution

revision committee and it is a bipartisan group floor.

Even so we're chosen to pick topics to listen to Floridians

and they're going to listen again in about 15 years from

now, and they're going to do this all over again and they

could take the exact same first line and put it on amendment to

ban horse racing. You have a limited amount of

time and energy and attention. You have to be communicative to

the world and and share the story that there Are very few

other endeavors of humans and animals coming together where

there is more Humane treatment than the horses that reside on

our back stretches. And in our Farms across this

great country and we just have to be out there telling that

story showing it proving it, defending our, social license,

with a really strong offense of improving every outcome that

that exists on the track and inside the rails and up outside

the race. Are you can follow pat pat.

Thank you very much for joining us.

We taking up way too much of your time.

You follow Pat on Twitter at Pat Cummings GIF or go racing

linkedin.com. You got another question, just

one more. It's we are of the opinion that

the best food near Keeneland is in Versailles and it's the hole

in the wall. Mexican joints.

Are you of the same opinion? I live the exact opposite side

but of course you do. So then I'm getting out of

keenly. I go that way.

Other way. So, there you go.

And don't forget, he's in between them to write a guy-guy,

North limes. Excellent on the Spalding's,

man, myself. Okay, I'm gonna sit somebody.

Yeah, well, the three of us look like we know how to do that.

Cummings. We appreciate the time.

We'll, we'll catch up with you. Hopefully, a couple times a year

just to catch up on what you guys are working on.

But congrats frankly on the penny breakage and the public

nature of that, I thought that was a really great story for you

guys and appreciate your candor about the issues that Churchill

reason. I appreciate it, guys.

Thanks a lot. All the best and continued

success. Thanks Batman.

All right, there it is. Pat Cummings, with the

Thoroughbred idea foundation. So there is so, all right, Pat

Louis. I love that stuff.

You know. I love that kind of stuff to

talk about and how we've been our listeners.

Do love those. I mean, we get a ton of messages

when we do those episodes. So for sure.

Now, and the last one, that that I did, you were out of town and

I think in the Carolinas or something, I had Peter Galiano

Saint to talk about the timing issues at different tracks and

how they're set up and those guys are, the people freaking

love these episodes. So no Pat's a people don't know,

Pat's but many years in Hong Kong as shots in it with the

Hong Kong Jockey Club and that group.

And so he's been everywhere. He's seen a little bit of

everything and sort of have a resource like that in the state

of Kentucky is really valuable for us.

I just love a lot of the stuff he was saying about just

transparency and, you know, I'm always talking about the just

about the Integrity of the BET and all that kind of stuff.

And, you know, being the person who lost money, when Medina

Spirit was cancelled out and then, you know, midi are not

meeting in spirit but man delune.

Well, mainly one, I would have wanted me to learn.

Would have been declared the winner, right out the bat and of

course I don't see that bed again.

But you know what? Brad Cox hadn't seen a trophy or

that. Money either so you know it's

transparency. Transparency transparency when

you got bets going on that transparency is super super

important and I'm you know I've also talked about to I'm tired

of it. When we have these horse

incidents we had one of Belmont. Say we saw a horrific one at

Preakness weekend in Pimlico, you know, horse Racing's got to

stop being like there's nothing to see here, you know it's just

not it doesn't serve the sport well to act like the We stopped

doesn't occur, you know what, I'm not saying, embrace it, I

don't say celebrate it, but I also don't think we hide from

it. And so big fan of Pat and all

the work that they do very much. So so we've only got one race.

If people are listening. Yeah, you can always find us on

Spotify, on the video feed to go back to Twitter.

Find us at horse happy hour if you're not following us there

and then of course you can find us on Twitter as well.

Horse racing happy hour on Twitch, go find the video.

There you can watch us every single week throws up on your

smart screen or on your A phone, whatever you want to do, let's

get real quick to just look at the the grade one, Shoemaker

mild seen Anita, which is a qualifier for the Breeders Cup

Mile. And we're going to see exalt its

performance here on the turf and Iredale coming through inside of

that pair, and then it's bound the cob there at the top of the

stretch. And here comes exalted.

After flavia's exalted, the new leader Cabo Spirit.

Does your in the center of the court hearing, they are running

a giant race and he has to get to exalted late.

Exalted to My Glade Iredale Hong Kong Harry on the far outside.

It's exalted holding on. Exalted is a great one winner.

As he takes their, it is Louis. What was your take of exalted

twin? They're just the reason,

obviously, we threw that is because it is a winning in, for

Breeders Cup. I think that this year, we're

going to try to really focus on making sure.

We follow that. Those races, even more closely.

We've already confirmed, the Dan Issel will be at Santa Anita for

Breeders Cup. So we got to be up.

Let's be clear about that. We were told we were not getting

credentialed by Jim Glock. And unless I was like, that's

pretty much what he said. So the by the way, that little

that little pause at the top of Pimlico, that's kind of, Who's

Who of row of horse racing like media Geeks.

Is it not? Oh yeah, that's why I fit in

really well. So is great.

It's so it's a just that race is, is interesting because it's,

it's a winning in and I assume none of those horses will finish

in the top five in that race. Because when you look at

exalted, for example, I mean this is a six year old horse who

they just recently put on the turf and it's since going on

turkey's 444 I mean he's been fantastic but that's his first

server grade one well you're gonna hear it when your body's

voice there he was like he's a great one winner like because

these not supposed to be doing the center, right?

Well then he wanted the great great three race.

The last time before that maybe maybe finding his his Turf is

giving him a his his career. A little bit of a second life.

But I would agree. I mean it's is that a serious

Breeders Cup mile Contender? Probably not.

You know, he got back about this number and make a liar out of

me. That's fine.

But at this point, I'm with, you know, welcome to see two horses

this weekend Mike that are getting back to things.

One of them is getting back to something they tried and was

successful at last year than one is going to try something for

the first time classic. Causeways going back on the

turf. And then they're moving Santan

to the dirt, fascinating will get into, we talked to Churchill

card which were only giving out win bets on and someplace show

bets because Pat was on the show and okay, but will talk about

the will talk about the, the stakes races here.

You know? And I was being kind of serious

on that. I do think that by that

solution, right? We can be part of the solution,

we have a voice, we have a microphone, we people.

And I think because of the diversity of our From from

series horseplayers to Casual fans.

I want to take that pretty seriously, you know, so I want

to make sure that we're part of that going forward.

So even Zach, I mean, because yeah, we love Zach.

It's actually is not and he's got his green, he's got his

previous hat on, he loves anything.

Yeah, he's loving it. All right, so let's go ahead and

let's start with that. With that card, we're going to

start with their Zach. How you doing Zach show,

nerd-off shown. Now you have To go to Spotify to

see it to see the steaks at the Preakness hats are this?

The Preakness gear is the best gear.

It just is they do. Okay, it's okay, it's okay.

All right, then we'll get started.

Now, you I did look at, you know, that we do have,

especially the the stakes races have a full heart, far less

entries in them than we've normally seen.

But Lily, maybe we were seeing stakes in trees with a lot of

horses that shouldn't have been stakes races, possibly.

I think that's absolutely possible.

And so I don't hate this smaller like the I don't let does love

the 5 horse field that we're going to get in one of the

stakes races, the seven, eight horse Field Station races.

I'm not against oh, okay. Okay.

What do you think eight is kind of where I wanted to be at

minimum just yeah that purpose but I understand where you're

coming from. Five gets like okay we're

playing Five arms race but I do think 78 is is better for sure.

All right, so we're going to see a lot of horses that we saw run

on Oaks and D-Day. And this today we're going to

start with talking with race 5 which is which is the regrets

takes. It is a grade 3 and this is a

225 thousand dollar race for Phillies that are three years

old and it's one and a my one and an eighth on the turf.

For example, we sold girl named Charlie losing this race on

Derby Day. Remember that?

Because I have a little cousin whose daughter is named Charlie.

What did you think of this race Ali?

This is a race where most of these Phillies have not.

On the mile and an eighth, right?

There's only one in the race that's done that.

And so we're watching these Phillies grow up in front of us.

It's something we talked about on the Triple Crown trailed like

that. This is the time of year to be

watching especially three-year-olds big.

Now we're going to start seeing more and more two-year-olds, you

can watch the progress and it's kind of fun to watch these

horses. Grow up in one that has run up,

the distance is mrs. Astor the for I have her on top

four to one John Velazquez back in the irons.

Last time he was on this horse, was at Keeneland at the distance

laws by a half-length and so I think she's absolutely got a

very very Very serious shot here.

We're talking with place bets man.

The one miss Riddler is 242 lifetime.

Broker made way. Back in July, at Ellis Park

going a mile they were washed off the the turf.

They basically ran on the dirt, she comes and tries the turf at

Keeneland for the first time goes a mile and wins.

Interesting thing about that running style, she got out

front. She stayed out front Luis saez,

the board on this one. That's a guy that I really trust

a rate on a horse and so if you're looking for a win place,

kind of bet here, I would look for the For or the one here kind

of choose what angle, you like, better for that one.

All right, we're going to move on to the next race, which is

the sixth race of the day. This is the airside stakes and

this is the five force field, right?

Five good horses. And it's, you know, it is a list

of steaks, it's not a graded, Stakes 225,000, a four year,

olds and up, six. Furlongs here.

Who did you like years? It all gunite.

Know, for me, it's mango. Who is an absolute horse for

course 10 for 17 lifetime at Churchill Downs including the

st. Matthews by 5.

Five open links on May, 4th, that's my horse here.

If I were playing like, you know, a daily double or a longer

part, maybe you pick three, something like that.

This is the horse that I would use by himself in a race because

I think I might is going to get a lot of money.

That's a combination between Steve asmussen and Tyler has

Muzzin at should get a lot of that should get a lot of

attention. They absolutely should.

But that's an easy for me. A good chance to play against.

And so I'll try to use the for here.

You want another longer shot here.

Tejano, twist is in this race, only 148 at church.

But it's for 49 at the distance. And so if you were looking for a

horse to kind of give you maybe some more value, maybe come in

second and more of like an Exacta play, I would look at the

2. So 4 and 2 on top for me.

Here, orange is a pig for Louis. We're going to move on to the

seventh race. I'm sorry neighborhood know my

old neighborhood, you're good. Yeah.

Being the ottoman Stakes here is another listen Stakes, another

hunt 225,000 a three year olds and up Mile and an eighth on the

turf. Seven Horse field here Lewis,

who was your pick in this one? All right, outside and work your

way and start with the seven webslinger who's done a lot of

really good things. One last time at Churchill Downs

over the mile and a sixteenth course is going to get an extra

six teeth of a mile and I think he's going to absolutely eat it

up and run away from this field love.

That they kept heavily Javier Castellano in the irons here.

Sure, ours coming from overseas first time in North America, not

a great angle for Todd Pletcher but this is a horse that is won

back-to-back. Major races at the

three-year-old level one at a mile and an eighth of wanted a

mile and a quarter horse can go forever in the Jumeirah Derby.

Most recently in made on for sure are Louisa is a board.

We all know how I feel about him.

Desert Duke is an interesting horse here for me was in that

race against Excuse me, behind behind webslinger didn't finish

very well. But before that was running

really, really well and the last time out at a mile and an eighth

won a race in an allowance company at keeneland's, I'm just

wondering if maybe it was a one-off last time at Churchill

horse, gets to train back up to this one and runs back better 5

to 1 therefore Mitchell, moral who starting at 12 percent at

Churchill, not the best, but he does hit the board quite a bit.

He said the board already 11 times in 24 runs.

So if you're looking for a horse, Maybe, Like we talked

about with that place show, kind of bet the five desert do my

query, where you go. All right, we're going to move

now to race eight, which is the Shawnee Stakes, were back to a

great three. 225 thousand dollar purse, Phillies and mayor's four

year, olds and up again, amount of 16th year and really give me

a chance to see what we can get up.

Hollings Pearl here Louie I'm to not great races.

Yep, can pauling's Pearl get back in the Winner's Circle is

going to be a big thing at mean. This is this is Deadhorse field

here. Really good quality field.

Who do you like anytime? You got travel.

Calm again. 12:45. Really interesting field.

Here, it is. So full disclosure, I'm not

betting this race. Okay, I cannot figure it out.

I have polished Pearl on top and I hate it because I just, it's,

I think I'm going on. Just drop in class and I don't

think that's a good enough reason to like a horse, but I'm

gonna drop in class and picking up, Tyler, I do that.

Actually think picking up, Tyler is good for this horse, so maybe

those two things together, we'll get her.

Her past the Finish Line first. I'm just not sure hidden

connections and interesting horse at a price.

Lost the double dog dare to frost point Who's in this race,

who Frostbite the six is? The favorite has won three

straight races and is a deserving favorite here for

sure. But loses Fabien Pratt in favor

of Junior Alvarado, who is a fine writer.

Everyone knows how I feel about him and Bill mod together with

art collector. And with, oh man, with rocket,

can this year down at Gulfstream, windows, we

back-to-back weekends, the combination.

They're hitting connection was right there.

In the double dog, dare ran in the Azzurri before that.

Before that was in Houston lady classic lost of Pauline's Pro by

less than two lengths. Can we get a front running style

race from hidden connection and get a value at 922?

Because I think you're going to get every bit of 922 on her

because I think people are going to see Frost point with three

straight wins. They're going to know the name

Pauline's Pearl. I think that it's hidden

connection. If you were looking for Value

that might be the value of this race.

Race 9 is the Arlington Stakes, another grade 3, another two

hundred twenty-five thousand dollar purse, my land of 16th

for four year olds and up, Louie set pieces in this race.

Another horse is taking a little bit of a drop in class. 7 year,

old gelding fall in love with the geldings, fall in love with

the Phillies. This is the classic Causeway

race that you were talking about here.

Cos a COS wake going to that Turf.

We, he's seen tons of success there.

What is your take on this race? A classic Causeway a Raid One

winner and in restricted, three year old company last year in

the Belmont Derby. So set-piece, Brad Cox training.

Off the layoffs here is at 27 percent but there's a horse.

The number six year old patronage so French bread for G

motion. He's thirty percent off of

layoffs and so I'm actually interested second off the

layoffs. I'm actually interested here to

see if that horse can go back to back.

That is not something that his horses usually do.

He does get Johnny V here. I'd like that Edition but that's

kind of a big ask. I think, I do think set-pieces

the class of the race. If you wanted to look somewhere

else, try to find a price here to various mercurius is Before,

this could be lose Longshot, 12:50 ran one, atom Island and

eight exactly. Over this course, right at 90

For Speed figure under Louis sighs, last time keeps Luis saez

in the irons here from like Maker Mike makers horses.

Go back to back at 21 percent so it's Louise long shot of the

name is right here to various maximum.

You need a shot. Well done tiberias, Max

mercurius, excuse me, the four horse here in the Arlington Lily

we talked about how much we love that Pimlico special at the

Preakness and we get to see Rattle and Roll back here in the

great three. Blame steaks, two hundred

twenty-five thousand dollar race for four year olds and up a mile

and an eighth coming off. I guess, kind of a short lay off

to come back and see if he can win the blame, but he was

awesome in the Pimlico special. Do you think he's vulnerable

here? I do think the two weeks is very

much. A question, of course is simply,

don't do that anymore. I'm going to try to get a pet

price here. Back-to-back races, happy

American is the six year 8 to 14 James Graham.

Real person, two of them have been running him together, if

you remember him earlier in the year and at the end of last

year, he won back-to-back, the tenacious listed Stakes at

Fairgrounds that comes back wins.

Louisiana, great three against mr.

Wireless force, it deorro comes back, you know, against those

horses again, back to back wins this game runs into Pioneer of

Medina who only win was then comes back in the Ben Ali at at

Keeneland losses by 4 and 3/4. 3/4 length.

I just I wonder if this horse can Recapture some of that, some

of that, I don't know that form from earlier on does stay at 120

pounds, but doesn't get Lasix. I really do.

Wonder if this isn't a Lasix horse, but if you're looking for

Value here, I think the six is the plate to the outside of him.

Is that pioneered Medina that? I that I offered he's never won

without Lasix so that might be a problem as well.

I think the last time you won with that Lasix was in Tampa in

his Maiden in 2021 in December. So that would be a bit of a

stretch but if you're looking to be the favorite here, obviously

I do think Rattle and Roll. It is a possible winner here and

then Barbara roads in this race. Running at the allowance level.

People don't remember, actually ran a really good Kentucky Derby

last year in 2020, to finish sixth by less than five lengths

behind Rich strike was in that port.

A part of that group were Rich strike had to make the move.

He was in that group there and so anytime a horse, Mike can

finish in that top third of the Kentucky Derby to me.

They are able to run a really, really big race, so he's 1 for 3

lifetime at Churchill and the only time he missed the board

was in the derby. I don't hold that against him in

a 20 horse field. Yeah, so at all, you've been

running in and allow its company both at Oaklawn and then it

Keeneland wins aquiline. Last time in a rallying fashion,

really had to duel down the stretch with Principe de Oro.

And so, if he can keep some of that for, maybe it's Barbara

Road, three, two, one with Rayleigh Gutierrez, who's

hitting it, 17 percent right now.

Well, John Ortiz, the two of them together on 18% their last

164 rides together with a almost positive Roi.

He might be the horse watching. All right, so that's that's all

good stuff right there. Are you going to be out of

Churchill dance? I am not.

I went oh gosh, I think I went on I went on Monday with the

boys and we had a positive day, so I'm going to watch these

ones. I'm watching on TV, I usually go

to this day when I'm watching on TV.

I think. Okay.

Yeah. No, shame there.

I do, you know, we talked about it, I still wish they would go

back to having Stephen Foster, day on Father's Day weekend, but

hey, you know, since since I have to do Zacks job, sometimes,

I just want to let you know that I just officially uploaded this

sound to the to the show as my Simpson.

There it is. So now we have it as the drop

right there in the background music so you can find a real

easily. So there you go.

I mean, you know, there it is. Alright, really enjoyed having

Patrick on today, Pat breakage coming.

Sir, it is any breakage who you taking in the, in the NBA Finals

nuggets and five the artist that it'll talk about it.

Was he going to be out there? Okay, this'll is Courtside.

Tolling all bujji. Ha ha ha humble brag.

He's Courtside, and he's got four tickets, three rows behind

the bench. So he's taking all five of his

grandkids and they're rotating throughout the game to come.

Sit with him. All right, well, I mean also the

Nuggets sent a car for him. Ha ha ha.

Who's got a better, the dead as well?

Let's go. Oh my gosh.

I mean, I'll go on that flight. You know, let's go, Dan.

Let's go for the weekend. I'm like, yeah, we can be there.

I've driven to Denver before from Kentucky.

I'd even do that. Yeah, I love it.

So are you taking your taking the Nuggets?

I am. I think eventually a story like

Miami once you run into a team with considerably better talent,

that also puts up the effort that you do is a problem.

And that's what they're going to run into here.

Yeah, totally agree. So also catches out of his bleep

in mind right now. So, it's man, you know,

sometimes you wonder if them having that much of a layoff

would bother them but you've got some of these these veterans,

like, Jamal Murray and yoga should just probably Then you

had a stay ready. I'm not worried.

Just Raptors legs and ice for a week.

I think he'll be fine. Yeah, it's probably action might

have done him some good. So Zach.

Do you have a take on the NBA finals?

Baltimore closet. And if you can beat the guy who

when asked, are you the best player on the Denver Nuggets?

And he says, you know, some days I am some days.

I have not. Meanwhile he's a two-time.

NBA MVP. Yeah, good luck.

He's crafty, man. You look at them and you

wouldn't like, pick them first. If you just go off looks and

whatever else. When he doesn't look like, he'd

be the guy that would go out there and get it done and can't

stop him. You know, he's he's the lure of

both speaking of That's right. All right.

Well we're going to call it quits today.

We will see you next week. We're going to talk about that

amazing card out at Belmont. And you know, I don't know how

much Belmont I'm going to get to watch them.

Be honestly, its my anniversary, I know I might be doing a

Spanish episode ahead of Belmont next week.

Okay, you know I gotta get, I gotta get I gotta get the guts

up, I need to just do it at some point.

You can do it. I know just make an ass of

myself, just do it. Yeah.

All right. We'll see you next time on the

horse racing. Happy hour.

Closing time. Open all the doors.